Single element

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Bigbud78
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Single element

Post by Bigbud78 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:08 pm

Locally I cant get hold of any Calor gas patio bottles and they want me to pay another deposit for a standard propane bottle or I could pony up for a flogas bottle.

Being cheesed off I wondered if I could move to electric instead ? I have a brewbuilder 50L pot atm and I generally have a starting boil of 30-35L, I have a socket in the kitchen I could use that is wired to the fuse board on its own 20amp MCB.

Could I run a 2.4 or 3kw element without any power control, i.e. just full tilt or should I run it off a pid really ? Its only for the boil as I have a buffalo HLT

Or would it be easier to just get another gas bottle xD

guypettigrew
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Re: Single element

Post by guypettigrew » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:27 pm

You could just about run 2 x 2.4kw elements off a 20 amp supply. This would get the wort boiling really quickly. Then you could drop down to one element to keep it going.

Or you could check with an electrician to find out if you could change the 20 amp MCB to a 40 amp MCB. Can't think of any reason why you couldn't, unless the wiring isn't rated for this.

With a 40 amp MCB you can keep both elements going for the whole boil.

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ciderhead
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Re: Single element

Post by ciderhead » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:46 pm

2.7kw or 3kw element should be enough to get a rolling boil if your boiler was insulated

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LeeH
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Re: Single element

Post by LeeH » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:47 pm

Insulation is your friend. That and a 3kW element will work ok.


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Wet Spaniel
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Re: Single element

Post by Wet Spaniel » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:41 am

I can't answer the question you asked, but it could be worth trying another gas supplier, mine is happy to change one bottle type for another.

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Mashman
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Re: Single element

Post by Mashman » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:15 am

Wet Spaniel wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:41 am
I can't answer the question you asked, but it could be worth trying another gas supplier, mine is happy to change one bottle type for another.
Yep, one local dealer here won't help at all, another one is happy to swap patio gas for standard propane. The calor website has (had?) a guide to allowed swaps but some agents are much more flexible. I find tool hire places most helpful.
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chrisbjones202
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Re: Single element

Post by chrisbjones202 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:25 am

Long term, go electric.

Calor have got strict on swapping between range recently as I found when I was after a small bottle for camping, it's not the dealers themselves. Don't go flo as the dealers are all changing to Calor (at least round me).

There are loads of old bottles on eBay cheap, find the size you need and then swap for a full one. I got a 13kg off local Facebook car boot for free earlier this year.

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Kev888
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Re: Single element

Post by Kev888 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:29 pm

Bigbud78 wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:08 pm
.. Could I run a 2.4 or 3kw element without any power control, i.e. just full tilt or should I run it off a pid really ? Its only for the boil as I have a buffalo HLT

Or would it be easier to just get another gas bottle xD
Yes, one element will be sufficient. You should be able to run up to a 3kw element from your socket, though as this is at the maximum rating of the socket & plug they need to be of high quality for sustained long term use. If you were to insulate the pot then you'd probably be able to manage with 2.4kw if necessary. I would suggest a physically long/large element (lower watt-density) as some of the very compact ones have more tendency to burn kettle debris onto themselves.

If this is just a boiler, you won't really need power control (one element on full won't be excessive) and you won't need temperature control either (as you want it fully boiling). If you're going to mash in it or use it as a HLT then temperature control could be worthwhile in allowing a degree of automatic control.

If you've currently got a fairly large burner you will likely find 1x element is slower to reach the boil - perhaps in the order of 50mins+ to raise 35L of wort from mash temperature to boiling. In a large pot, you may also find the boil vigour is a bit weaker unless you partially cover with the lid ('partially' covering is not a problem IMO, but some people prefer not to).

After that its more about general preferences and circumstances: some people don't like electricity around water (or in the rain if brewing outside), or the challenges of wiring (bypassing cut-outs and so on), or the increased chances of something to go wrong, or just making holes in their pot. On the other hand there are no cylinders to lug about, store safely or run out on you during the brew, and electricity is clean and quiet so can be done indoors. Its also easier to automate for those who like fiddling with control panels etc.
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Re: Single element

Post by Fil » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:20 pm

I echo the above. yes 1 x element will work but 2x provides a) a quicker initial boil, and b) a backup (elements can fail generally at the worst time..)

power control isnt necessary, a boil is a boil, and you can exert indirect control over the boil with insulation around the pot wall and partial lidding if necessary.

and compared to gas i think you will find it a lot less hassle too.

If using extension leads just ensure they are 1) suitably rated, ie 13a max not 10a, and when used are fully unwound, (DONT COIL THE FLEX) and many of us electric patio brewers use extension leads plugged into 2 different rings just to spread the load.. and just be mindful of the possibility of a spill when sitting the flex and plug/socket connections.

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Bigbud78
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Re: Single element

Post by Bigbud78 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:33 pm

Thanks everyone, I picked up another bottle from a different supplier in the end but I'm still looking at electric. Were supposed to be having an extension soon (if the builder turns up) and will get the garage wired up with a decent supply.

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Kev888
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Re: Single element

Post by Kev888 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:59 am

That sounds like a good plan, especially if work is being done already.

By the way, one thing that not everyone realises - because it seems ridiculous - is that domestic double sockets aren't officially required to handle double the current. So as you're able to plan ahead, I'd suggest going for at least one socket per big element regardless of them being single or double - and good quality ones too (such as MK). Or else the industrial 16amp ceeform/commando type would be more bomb-proof if specifically being installed for this purpose, but not everyone wants to use incompatible/industrial plugs in an otherwise domestic environment.
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Bigbud78
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Re: Single element

Post by Bigbud78 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:03 pm

Kev888 wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:59 am
That sounds like a good plan, especially if work is being done already.

By the way, one thing that not everyone realises - because it seems ridiculous - is that domestic double sockets aren't officially required to handle double the current. So as you're able to plan ahead, I'd suggest going for at least one socket per big element regardless of them being single or double - and good quality ones too (such as MK). Or else the industrial 16amp ceeform/commando type would be more bomb-proof if specifically being installed for this purpose, but not everyone wants to use incompatible/industrial plugs in an otherwise domestic environment.
Yeah, I've got a fairly decent understanding of house electrics and I used to build guitar amps and mods. I really like the simplicity of the setup I have at the moment and don't want to go down the road of electric brewing but ditching the gas is appealing. Wondering if one of those induction plates might actually be better for me, I've got a few months until the build is supposed to start but I'll ensure the cable that runs to the garage can run three elements, pumps and three fridges with some overhead :lol:

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