Tilt hydrometer review

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by f00b4r » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:30 pm

PeeBee wrote:
f00b4r wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:24 pm
I'm confused as to why you are seeing this again unless you have been really unlucky and for a second lemon. Do you have cooling cools in the fv or similar?
Yes. Pumped from a bucket of cold water to start, then fed from a shelf cooler's python lines when Summer decided to hot up.
I'm wondering if the placement of the cooling coils is interfering with the readings as both tools have always been pretty spot on for me using various yeasts.

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by Cobnut » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:40 pm

f00b4r wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:30 pm
PeeBee wrote:
f00b4r wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:24 pm
I'm confused as to why you are seeing this again unless you have been really unlucky and for a second lemon. Do you have cooling cools in the fv or similar?
Yes. Pumped from a bucket of cold water to start, then fed from a shelf cooler's python lines when Summer decided to hot up.
I'm wondering if the placement of the cooling coils is interfering with the readings as both tools have always been pretty spot on for me using various yeasts.
That is an interesting thought; I use a fermentasaurus and so can see the tilt (when the krausen is small enough!). I find it tends to drift towards the wall of the fermenter. So if you have cooling coils, the Tilt could be getting slightly trapped at a fixed angle and so seeming to "stick".

Maybe a viable explanation?
Fermenting: nowt
Conditioning: English IPA/Bretted English IPA
Drinking: Sunshine Marmalade, Festbier, Helles Bock, Smokey lagery beer, Irish Export StoutCascade APA (homegrown hops), Orval clone, Impy stout, Duvel clone, Conestoga (American Barley wine)
Planning: Dark Mild, Kozel dark (ish), Simmonds Bitter, Bitter, Citra PA and more!

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by guypettigrew » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:21 pm

This 'misreading' of the Tilt always happened when I used it. The Tilt was nowhere near the cooling coil in the Brewtech FV. Like you, Cobnut, I found it always drifted to the edge of the FV away from the coil.

It always had a thick layer of crud (yeast!) on top of it by the end of the fermentation. And it always over read the SG. I'd be looking for a gravity of (say) 1.012 towards the end of the fermentation to tell me when to begin the cooling process.

Because it read high it meant I was leaving beer in the FV far longer than I wanted to. I started taking refractometer readings because the bubbles were really slow coming out of the blow off tube. That's when I discovered the Tilt's inaccuracy.

So now I just watch the bubble rate and use adjusted refractometer readings when it looks as though the primary fermentation is done.

Guy

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by Cobnut » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:59 pm

@guypettigrew, I log to Brewfather.com via a TiltPi, so I can see the trend and work out (see) from that when fermentation has finished. I agree that the Tilt doe snot always give the same answer as other means of measuring gravity, but I've so far (c. 8 brews) I've found it is pretty good at telling when it's reached terminal gravity.

If you look earlier in this thread, you'll see I linked to an example of one of my logs and you can see that the gravity drops rapidly after a short lag and then flattens off (red line) as it reaches FG. This one: https://web.brewfather.app/#/share/6SjfSCfjn1kmb5

The blue line shows the temperature and you can see where I stepped it up and then cold crashed.

(Ignore the last part where I clearly forgot to "detach" the Tilt to stop logging. :-$)

I find this really helpful and it means I don't have to remove dip anything into the fermenter and risk any infection.

That said, my most recent brew showed a distinct difference between target FG and FG as recorded by the Tilt (3 gravity points), but the refractometer reading showed a match with the target FG. Glass hydrometer was more in agreement with the Tilt.

So what do I (choose to) believe?
Fermenting: nowt
Conditioning: English IPA/Bretted English IPA
Drinking: Sunshine Marmalade, Festbier, Helles Bock, Smokey lagery beer, Irish Export StoutCascade APA (homegrown hops), Orval clone, Impy stout, Duvel clone, Conestoga (American Barley wine)
Planning: Dark Mild, Kozel dark (ish), Simmonds Bitter, Bitter, Citra PA and more!

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by PeeBee » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:48 pm

Refractometers are usually "temperature compensated". It wont be a precision compensation, but should roughly keep readings the same when within the range of 2-32C. The conversion calculators will convert this reading (BRIX) to SG@15C or 20C, or whatever temperature the SG in the calculations is "normalised" to. So it should be possible to get a difference of SG measured by the Tilt (compared to the refractometer) simply by changing the temperature. But to get even 2 points of difference will need temperature changes of about 8-10C. So we're not looking for an explanation there.

Cooling coils interfering with the Tilt is perfectly rational. But I'm using a Grainfather Conical, which has a cooling sleeve built into the fermenter's perpendicular wall. As can be seen in the graph, the cooling is keeping the beer at a very steady temperature (+/-0.5C). So we're not looking for an explanation there either. If I was using my other fermenter which does have coiling coils, those coils are external too so I needn't worry about them.

The Tilt might well stick to the fermenter side (through surface tension?), and this would make for a good explanation. But fishing about for it with the paddle I used for rousing seemed to suggest it was away from the wall (not conclusive. The Tilt is impossible to see under 50-60mm of yeast cap).

I'm coming to the conclusion the Tilt simply can't handle heavy top crops of yeast. But I'll be happy if I can work around this issue (if it is the issue).

11/07/2019 1625 Edited for clarity.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by PeeBee » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:41 pm

The beer that was the subject of the last few posts is now casked. The final reading from the Tilt was:
Fferna4.1.JPG
Fferna4.1.JPG (24.57 KiB) Viewed 4025 times
The reading is matching refractometer readings. But before shouting 'hooray', it's doing that because I'm tweaking the configuration 'on-the-fly' in an attempt to find a work around to the persistent over-reading. The plot for the brew is:
Fferna4.2BB.jpg
Each 'block' represents 2 days (horizontally) and at the beginning of the third day the Tilt starts to 'stick' for over 12 hours. Subsequently it over-read by about 4 points before it was 'recalibrated' on the 11th day (hence the steep drop on the graph). The red dotted line roughly follows the refractometer readings. After nearly emptying the fermenter and get a view of the Tilt:
20190717_162821_WEB.jpg
It has retained quite a dollop of yeast on its top which is what I believe is causing the over-read.

I'll sit and think how best to work around these 'events'. I'm not giving up on the Tilt, it is a very handy tool, but I do need a plan to get the best from the device.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by PeeBee » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:54 pm

I've a few more brews under my belt with the "Tilt", developing what I hope will be a consistent way to manage them.

This last brew certainly helped! It was my first brew back in my big brewery that had been undergoing modifications for the past 14-15 months! I'm not very fast!

I'd always thought the Tilt would struggle with this 70L stainless steel fermenter. It's not one of the new (low cost) home-brew conicals, it's the older "scaled down" design based on full size (multi-hectolitre) brewery fermenters (they don't make them anymore, came from here: https://www.williseuropean.com/brewerie ... ermenters/). Sure enough, the mobile phone could not detect the Tilt through about 2 - 2.5mm of stainless steel (the lid is 9mm, hence I don't take it off during fermentation unless really necessary), so I tried the "Pi"; hey a glimmer of recognition. I tried the "Pi" on the edge of the worktop (clear line of sight, less than 1m away): Perfect! Remarkable that these Tilt things transmit through so much stainless steel.

So, the plan I'd developed: Calibrating with sugar solutions (SG 1.120 and 1.061) seemed to be a waste of time (i.e. didn't help at all). So, before plunging the Tilt into the wort, put it in plain water first.
  • Calibrate the Tilt for "1.000" (if battery not changed this seems to remain the same as last time).
  • Delete all other SG calibration points.
  • Measure SG of wort with hydrometer or refractometer (not the Tilt!).
  • Put Tilt into wort.
  • Add Tilt calibration point for SG of wort.
  • Name brew for Tilt in "Logging".
  • Enter Gmail address in "Logging" to start logging.
  • Watch forming graph, if no movement yet plenty of fermentation signs:
  • Or … if SG doesn't seem to move downwards for 6 or more hours (allowing for "noise"):
    • Wait for graph to start registering a fall again.
    • Measure SG or wort with hydrometer or refractometer.
    • Add Tilt calibration point for current OG of fermenting wort (try to allow for noise).
I reckon this resetting the Tilt's calibration whenever it has one of these "stuck" episodes will fix the problems I've been having with them. But I am aware that the yeast being used (and temperature) has a marked effect on whether you have these problems or not. Mangrove Jack's M-44 seemed to create no problem at all (very light top crop), a lager yeast at 12C also caused no noticeable problems, or a notoriously claggy yeast - White Labs "Edinburgh Ale" yeast - at a fairly cool 16C. All my issues with a Tilt seemed to relate to heavy cropping UK (and Belgium?) yeasts at uk type temperatures (i.e. warm at 19-20C). The Tilt appears to get "stuck" in the top crop and is thereafter dampened and "loaded" (as in dice!) by the yeast about it (i.e. it starts to move again, but the yeast doesn't "fall off" so the misread becomes "permanent" for the period of fermentation).

So, this time a mucky UK yeast at proper "ale" temperatures and a well-thought-out management policy (well, I think so :? ). Oh, and a different and challenging large 70L fermenter (45L batch). Lets see how I get on … But I've been rambling long enough for now so I'll come back to this later …
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by PeeBee » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:07 pm

Duff post - please delete this post!
Last edited by PeeBee on Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by PeeBee » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:40 pm

continued …

So, here we have a snapshot of the graph three days in (50-70% of a similar brew in the Grainfather, fermentation does seem to like space and 20L or so is cramped it seems). Fermentation is close to finished.
MynyddMynyllod1a.JPG
You can pick out significant "stuck" events, there's one at …

… damn, there isn't one! There's a bit more room for the Tilt (surface area to depth) perhaps that has something to do with it? Still lots of noise, but that isn't an issue which is what I hope my new found insight will do for the "sticking" problem. Here's what the Tilt is saying which corresponds to the recent refractometer readings:
MynyddMynyllod1b.JPG
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by PeeBee » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:06 pm

Next brew …

This does have an example of a "stuck" event. But not a very extreme one. Seems to suggest fermenter geometry does affect the "Tilt"? This is another 45L batch in the 70L conical fermenter which will have much more surface area compared to depth than the Grainfather Conical used for earlier trials. Such a geometrically dependant "fault" might explain why many home-brewers are not making the same complaint about Tilts? Anyhow:
1877-2aii.JPG
The "stuck event" is hi-lighted. It only went on for about 6 hours (no downward progress), but afterwards the Tilt would over-read by 2-3 points probably due to weight of yeast remaining on the Tilt (this does not "fall off"). So my plan was to compensate by recognising such an event, taking a manual reading (with a refractometer, but hydrometer would be good too) and adding in another calibration point.

The gravity trace looks like the beer's stopped fermenting a bit early and abruptly. But I find this typical for S-33 yeast which is why I use it for these beers (a "Burton Ale" type, in this case a 1845 clone). S-33 is very poor at fermenting the dextrin "Maltotriose".
1877-2c.JPG
The extra calibration point "pulls in" the original calibration line so that the Tilt's over-reading is compensated for.
1877-2b.JPG
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by Cobnut » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:35 pm

@PeeBee, loving the analytical approach you're taking to this.

As I've said before, I do like my Tilt, but it certainly is not without its' issues!
Hazelweiss Tilt log.jpg
This log from a recent Hefeweiss brew in my fermentasaurus shows some very odd "behaviour".

I've highlighted two areas which I think I understand - or at least the trigger for them, but first a little background...

I brew in a fermentasaurus and use the "pressure kit" which allows me to brew under pressure as well as then to transfer "oxygen free" to corny kegs where appropriate. I use a spunding valve to limit the pressure (before the PRV triggers), but as I think you've said elsewhere, the "poppit" valves on these are a rather hit-and-miss affair. So I tend to let the pressure build and then release down to the target c.5psi pressure, but this is also a bit hit-and-miss!

And this is what happened in the two highlighted areas; I let the pressure go rather too high and on releasing in the Tilt showed a rather dramatic INCREASE in SG.

I've not seen this happen in the past with lower pressure brews, but I have seen some variation between my various measuring devices, especially recently...Tilt v Refractometer v glass hydrometer all disagreeing with one another. What to believe?

Ho hum, still making beer!
Fermenting: nowt
Conditioning: English IPA/Bretted English IPA
Drinking: Sunshine Marmalade, Festbier, Helles Bock, Smokey lagery beer, Irish Export StoutCascade APA (homegrown hops), Orval clone, Impy stout, Duvel clone, Conestoga (American Barley wine)
Planning: Dark Mild, Kozel dark (ish), Simmonds Bitter, Bitter, Citra PA and more!

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by PeeBee » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:23 pm

Hi Cobnut! Yeap, you've got two of what I'd term "events" hi-lighted. I find these "events" also have quite dramatic up-down movements: I imagine these to be due to the effects of evolving CO2 on the mat of yeast in which the Tilt has got stuck, which will be more extreme in your case because of the degassing sparked by depressurising the fermenting beer.

While stuck the Tilt amasses a weight of yeast which doesn't fall off when it comes free and causes the Tilt to misread from then on (the extra weight might be shed later, but fermentation will be over by then).

That's what I'm imagining anyway. Seems to fit though. And I'm hoping these "on-the-fly" calibrations fix the issue as the problem is easily detectable in the forming graph. But a few more trials are in order to say yah or nay.


As a side-line I see your smaller batch had a leisurely fermentation: I'm just getting used to the frantic fermentations in larger batches again! Note mine had an SG of 1.069 and hit FG in about 48 hours! Only a double size batch but doubles the speed a fermentation (and it isn't temperature - it's plain to see my ferment was being held below 18C).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by LeeH » Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:23 am

Why don’t tilt just develop steep cone top to replace the flat one. This would drastically reduce the trub collected on the top.


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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by PeeBee » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:08 am

LeeH wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:23 am
Why don’t tilt just develop steep cone top to replace the flat one. This would drastically reduce the trub collected on the top.
Nice thought, but a Tilt does just that … tilts! So a steep cone ain't so steep for most of the fermentation. At the time of greatest yeast build up the angle of the flat top is very steep relative to the wort surface. A "blade" like top might be a better way of thinking it?

I had a screwball idea of having the top floating bit articulated to the submerged body section so the tilt bit (body) can't get stuck in the yeast cap. But that is no doubt head in the clouds stuff too (okay, so my head is always in the clouds … I drink beer to get some sort of normality, or is that drunk?).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Tilt hydrometer review

Post by LeeH » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:20 pm

It does not tilt that much though, surely a cone surface would help reduce the build up.


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Sabro Single Hop NEIPA 25/02/20 CLICK ME to monitor progress with Brewfather & iSpindel

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