Tilt hydrometer review

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guypettigrew
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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by guypettigrew » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:55 pm

Hi PeeBee

Back from holiday today and have just been reading your reports on the performance of the replacement Tilt.

You seem to be finding exactly what I found with the original one.
  • The variance between the uncalibrated and calibrated SG. I had to recalibrate it against a refractometer/hydrometer reading every brew. What's the point of the uncalibrated figure if we just have to ignore it?
  • The almost random SG readings as the SG drops.
  • Apparently 'stuck' SG readings which suddenly change.
This led to it being unreliable when looking for the end point of the primary fermentation. As I've mentioned before, watching the bubble rate through the blow off tube and occasional refractometer readings proved more useful.

Like you, I'm convinced the layer of krausen on the top of the tilt must affect it. That, and its tendency to migrate to the edge of the fermenter and rest against the side wall. There were times, early on, when I left the beer far too long in the FV because the Tilt told me (completely incorrectly) it was nowhere near the expected FG.

Looking forward to further reports from you, but I'm increasingly believing the Tilt is a brilliant idea which hasn't translated well in practice.

Guy

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by f00b4r » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:24 pm

I'm confused as to why you are seeing this again unless you have been really unlucky and for a second lemon. Do you have cooling cools in the fv or similar?

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by PeeBee » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:32 pm

guypettigrew wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:55 pm
Hi PeeBee

Back from holiday today and have just been reading your reports …
Hope you've had a good holiday!

I think I'm beginning to appreciate the reasons behind some of the recent batch of problems. I'm using a TiltPi to fetch the data and I don't think I'm calibrating it right, the result is I am getting single point calibration which is no use. The phone is calibrated okay so is reading fine.

Which made me realise, although I had been unthinkingly presuming, you don't calibrate the Tilt, you calibrate the receiver (the mobile app or TiltPi, the Tilt device is only transmitting).

So I get the instructions out to calibrate the TiltPi … ah, there's the problem! There's no instructions! So I was guessing, and who knows what I was guessing but it wasn't right. I've now entered the calibration values as two separate space delimited lists and it seems to be reading the same as the 'phone now, but it's a geeky guess (what can I expect for "free" software, but I was pushing the TiltPi as a much better solution than the 'phone).

The gravity readings do get noisy when fermenting strong, but this is obviously CO2 clinging and releasing

So looking at the Google Docs graphs (pre-calibration):
TiltPi9.JPG
The temperature is bouncing about a bit because of our "mini-heatwave" and having to fight with my cooling arrangements. I was critical of the manufactures claiming to have "0.1C" resolution, but those claims aren't from the manufacturer and probably come from confused ramblings of other users and retailers. The manufacturers only claim +/-0.5-0.6C or 1.0F. Shame Celsius is just a direct conversion of Fahrenheit (instead of rounding to the nearest 0.5C).

What does worry me is the tendency to "stick". On the graph it's happened at about 1.042 and again (briefly) after it was "freed" at about 1.035. The sticking must be due to yeast on the surface - the manufacturers claim that can't happen but they are talking about "foam" not claggy rafts of yeast.

But these two issues are okay (?) if you know they are happening.

I'm planning on another trial next week to test what I've learnt - different beer but same yeast (White Labs "Edinburgh Ale"). I'll guess you'll want this thing back after that. The new one of course not the old one, although perhaps the old one can be recovered from its "broken" status?.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by PeeBee » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:38 pm

f00b4r wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:24 pm
I'm confused as to why you are seeing this again unless you have been really unlucky and for a second lemon. Do you have cooling cools in the fv or similar?
Yes. Pumped from a bucket of cold water to start, then fed from a shelf cooler's python lines when Summer decided to hot up.

This replacement is calibrated better than the old one, but still short of good: Over reading +0.002 in water, and then under reading -0.006 in 1.058 wort. I'm realising that calibrating the TiltPi is a bit of a guess job (calibrating the phone app is fine). I'm only just appreciating that calibrating the Tilt hardware (by the manufacturer) is quite different to the user calibrating the software used to read the Tilt. But most users will not want their heads mashed having to think about such things.

EDIT: Calibrating the TiltPi is a bit of a guess job, but my best guess is to use comma delimited lists (space delimited didn't work). Sorry, I've come over all geeky. I'm also playing at getting temperatures to display to the nearest 0.5C instead of all the .3C, etc. nonsense, thus:
TiltPi7.JPG
PS I'm only trying to get sensible temperature readings around ale fermentation temperatures - and I don't know how well it will work!
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by PeeBee » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:43 am

I think I should persuade more folk to believe what I say about calibration because most folk only have one receiving device (probably a mobile phone) and wont see this or trust the ramblings of a loony. I have a calibrated "TiltPi" device monitoring my Tilt 24-7 (highly recommended - by me that is). I can see its readings on a Web browser:
TiltPi44.JPG
If I grab my mobile phone with the (uncalibrated) Tilt app running I see:
Screenshot_20190702-111816_Tilt 2.jpg
Same Tilt, same beer. So what you calibrate does not magically alter the Tilt, it only alters the receiving software (on a Raspberry Pi or a mobile phone/tablet).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Cobnut
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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by Cobnut » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:55 am

I'm assuming (perhaps dangerously) that you've seen this:

https://tilthydrometer.com/blogs/news/m ... tilt-2-app

Whilst it references use of the Tilt app, I suspect that you're right to use a comma delimited list in the Tilt Pi app.

Any doubts, you can always ask the guys at Baron Brew.

info@baronbrew.com

P.S. Really must go to this trouble with my Tilt... :oops:
Fermenting: nowt
Conditioning: English IPA/Bretted English IPA
Drinking: Sunshine Marmalade, Festbier, Helles Bock, Smokey lagery beer, Irish Export StoutCascade APA (homegrown hops), Orval clone, Impy stout, Duvel clone, Conestoga (American Barley wine)
Planning: Dark Mild, Kozel dark (ish), Simmonds Bitter, Bitter, Citra PA and more!

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by PeeBee » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:23 pm

Yes I have seen that and I'm in touch with "Baron Brew" so I now know comma delimited is right. I'll try the base-level multi-point calibration next time around.
Cobnut wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:55 am

P.S. Really must go to this trouble with my Tilt... :oops:
No you don't! You wait for me to iron out all the "bumps" and avoid the trouble yourself. Or that's what I hope to keep me motivated to write up all this drivel. However, that way you rely on me which means you don't suspect I'm writing nonsense. I know some people will avoid putting their faith in me. \:D/
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by Cobnut » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:56 pm

No you don't! You wait for me to iron out all the "bumps" and avoid the trouble yourself. Or that's what I hope to keep me motivated to write up all this drivel. However, that way you rely on me which means you don't suspect I'm writing nonsense. I know some people will avoid putting their faith in me. \:D/
I'm enjoying this thread.

I admit, I love my Tilt. Not that it's without its' foibles, but then again, I'm not convinced I believe my (cheap) refractometer or (equally cheap) hydrometer* any more than I do the Tilt. The brews I've tracked with it seem to have gone OK. The apparent alcohol and dryness (or otherwise) largely chimes with what the Tilt tells me, and the fact that it gives me a good view of when the brew has completed is something that I like. I guess I could simply leave the beer to ferment for a fortnight and rack it off, but sometimes I want it out sooner and if the Tilt can tell me it's "done" inside a week, then I can move on.

Please do keep on with these posts and that way we all get to learn some more and make more informed decisions.


* My hydrometer reads 3-4 points in plain water. Never checked it against a known gravity liquid. And the refractometer seems to be good some days and other days miles off. I zero-set it in plain water from time to time. The trouble is what to believe??? I need my local HB club to do an equipment check/comparison/calibration session. Then I expect I'll be even more confused!
Fermenting: nowt
Conditioning: English IPA/Bretted English IPA
Drinking: Sunshine Marmalade, Festbier, Helles Bock, Smokey lagery beer, Irish Export StoutCascade APA (homegrown hops), Orval clone, Impy stout, Duvel clone, Conestoga (American Barley wine)
Planning: Dark Mild, Kozel dark (ish), Simmonds Bitter, Bitter, Citra PA and more!

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by PeeBee » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:54 am

At the risk of being boring, I'm off testing again. Recording as I go does support my claim to be "impartial" 'cos I can't so easily "cook the books" as doing it after the event (as if I'd be capable of such deceit!).

Same claggy yeast (WLP028, from overbuild). Very slow start (barely showing signs at 18 hours - likely lack of oxygenation 'cos I didn't bother!) but can't blame "rafts of yeast" yet for interfering with the Tilt. Oddly, based on previous use I was expecting the Tilt to under-read by about 4 points (uncalibrated SG - at least I can see why this seemingly un-necessary value is displayed now, no point having such expectations based on calibrated values), and it was but it's now over-reading by 1-2 points. Maybe I knocked it "rousing" the beer (I'm not used to slow starts) because the value changed after I did that (from a calibrated 1.039 to 1.045). I wouldn't have thought it so sensitive to some minor knock with a spoon? Anyway, I removed the calibration points added for OG of previous beer (refractometer 1.058, uncalibrated Tilt 1.052) and everything returned to normal (still calibrated to read 1.000 in water - uncalibrated it read 1.002 - but now single-point calibration means that the two point correction is applying across the whole range). So, at 36 hours after pitching I have:
Fferna.JPG
Which compares well with the (corrected) refractometer reading of 1.034. Remember the refractometer sample is taken from the sampling/racking port and may not be exactly the same as the Tilt in the bulk. I've remembered to log a beer name this time around too ("Moel Fferna" is a local hill).

Don't worry if the calibrated/uncalibrated stuff goes "over-yer-'ead", I'll reach a simplified conclusion when I finish.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by PeeBee » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:08 am

Another change I've made this time is clicked the "UPDATE APP (FLOW)" button in the "System" section of the TiltPi app. This was recommended by the Baron Brew guys. It's not a very friendly button because it doesn't tell you if it has done anything (so you press it more than once!) but apparently this silence is normal and it has done something (what?).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by Cobnut » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:02 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:08 am
Another change I've made this time is clicked the "UPDATE APP (FLOW)" button in the "System" section of the TiltPi app. This was recommended by the Baron Brew guys. It's not a very friendly button because it doesn't tell you if it has done anything (so you press it more than once!) but apparently this silence is normal and it has done something (what?).
What does "UPDATE APP (FLOW)" do?
Fermenting: nowt
Conditioning: English IPA/Bretted English IPA
Drinking: Sunshine Marmalade, Festbier, Helles Bock, Smokey lagery beer, Irish Export StoutCascade APA (homegrown hops), Orval clone, Impy stout, Duvel clone, Conestoga (American Barley wine)
Planning: Dark Mild, Kozel dark (ish), Simmonds Bitter, Bitter, Citra PA and more!

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by PeeBee » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:31 pm

Cobnut wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:02 pm
What does "UPDATE APP (FLOW)" do?
I guess it is some running updates changing the version to "Tilt Pi v.2.1". But that's only because I don't remember it saying "2.1" before. And what got updated is anyone's guess. I'm surprised how "ungeeky" the Pi app is, but geekiness shines through in places! A button saying "UPDATE APP (FLOW)" is not helpful.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by PeeBee » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:23 pm

Started off well, but fermentation hadn't gone many days* before the Tilt started wandering off. It has been over-reading by about 4-5 points (compared to refractometer readings) for about two days, despite rocking the fermenter and just having given the beer a stir.

* "Many days" doesn't normally describe a fermentation like I'm used to. The last "rousing" was as much for trying to get some action out of the yeast as for trying to "unstick" the Tilt. The very sedate fermentation has nothing to do with the Tilt.
Fferna2.1.JPG
Fferna2.1.JPG (23.81 KiB) Viewed 3574 times
Fferna2.2b.jpg
Fferna2.2b.jpg (27.6 KiB) Viewed 3574 times
The first piccie is a recent gravity reading of 1.024, but a refractometer reading is giving 1.020. It's been a few hours giving these readings, hence it got a "rousing". The second piccie has a "trend-line" added for the refractometer readings. Starts well (the beer needed an initial rousing to kick it into action, high-lighted "A") but things started going wrong about lunchtime 8th July ("B", the legends are in American date format … wot, no UK?). The Tilt is stuck, possibly gummed up in yeast? Some "agitation" of the fermenter slowly gets the Tilt back on track. But not for long, by early morning on 9th July the Tilt is gummed up again ("C") and this time "agitation" has no effect. But in desperation the beer gets a rousing. By the end of the graph the Tilt is "only" over-reading by 4 points.

Fermentation should lose another 8-10 points yet. I'll see how it goes over the next day or two, but I'm not getting very enthusiastic about the Tilt!
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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chastuck
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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by chastuck » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:51 pm

What are you doing with these Tilts and why are you making things so complicated? I have used them for years on all sorts of beers and in all sorts of fermenters (both stainless and plastic) and have never had the discrepancies and problems you have described.

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Re: Tilt hydrometer review

Post by PeeBee » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:18 am

After a bit of a stir and all night for the beer to get sorted out again the Tilt is reading 1.020. Hooray!

But the refractometer is now producing a reading of 1.016. The Tilt is stubbornly over-reading 4 points as it was just before this last "stuck" episode. The natural conclusion is a Tilt is not immune to 50mm (or more) of heavy sticky yeast crop. If that's the case the Tilt will be influenced differently depending on yeast (this is White Labs WLP028 - seemingly quite a heavy top cropper). I'll wait and see if I can get any other conclusions out of this.

The easiest solution is to stop worrying about this "lag" (I'm presuming it is a "lag" and the Tilt will catch up with the refractometer readings?). "Ignorance-is-bliss", especially if you've spent about £150 on one of these devices. But if you are bottling a four point error could be lethal! Although in this case the "error" is erring on the safe side. But the biggest reason "ignorance-is-bliss" wont work for me … I don't like being ignorant.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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