RO water filter

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guypettigrew
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Re: RO water filter

Post by guypettigrew » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:28 pm

Should be fine. Have you worked out what treatment the RO water will need for brewing?

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Re: RO water filter

Post by guypettigrew » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:47 am

Just checked the RO water from my local aquarium shop. Hopefully it should be about the same as the RO water you'll get from your new filter.

It's got 32 ppm total dissolved solids, so the RO kit at the shop clearly works.

The alkalinity (using a Salifert kit) is about 10-11 ppm.

Does this mean you'll need to increase the alkalinity for brewing? I only ever use my hard water which needs the alkalinity reducing, so I have no idea what's needed when you start with low alkalinity water.

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Re: RO water filter

Post by vacant » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:18 am

guypettigrew wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:47 am
Does this mean you'll need to increase the alkalinity for brewing? I only ever use my hard water which needs the alkalinity reducing, so I have no idea what's needed when you start with low alkalinity water.
I aim for the correct alkalinity range by simply using a small amount of my very hard tap water.

I bought RO water twice. The first time I used 100% RO and "built" the mineral profile. Got a splendid brew. Second time, I just used 10% very hard tap water (270) and 90% RO aiming for 27. Another fine pale brew.

Then I bought an RO filter. So these days I filter around 28 ltr which collects in a plastic jerry can, add 7 ltr tap water to 35 ltr total. Do a Salifert test and depending on the style, I may or may not add a touch of CRS.

All of the above have gypsum or calcium chloride added for the mash.
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Re: RO water filter

Post by guypettigrew » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:59 pm

^^^^ Absolutely brilliant and straightforward way of getting the alkalinity where you want it when starting with RO water.

Extra salts definitely needed, as I'd guess there's little or no Calcium in RO water. About 100ppm is, I understand, a minimum for mashing.

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Re: RO water filter

Post by Carnot » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:13 pm

The reject rate for an RO is a function of the mineral ,loading AND the water pressure. For water to permeate through the membrane requires the osmotic pressure to be overcome. As the mineral loading increase so does the osmotic pressure. If you have a low mains pressure then there will be a very high reject rate. If your mains pressure is low a break tank and booster pump might be an option, though an extra cost. Check what your RO unit can handle pressure wise and get as close to the maximum as possible if you want to minimise the reject rate.

It is really horses for courses but most tap water can be made suitable, though there are always exceptions.

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Re: RO water filter

Post by hopit » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:24 pm

I went with this for a pale ale:

Calcium - 57
Magnesium - 10
Sodium - 8
Sulfate - 106
Chloride - 51

Interesting that your TDS meter is saying 32 ppm for aquarium water. I tested it out of my RO filter and it was 20 ppm, which I thought was a bit high for a new filter, but obviously not!

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Re: RO water filter

Post by Kev888 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:44 am

That is a fairly American type of profile, which of course is fine if that is what you're trying to brew. If the intention is for more of a British style pale ale then it would be better to double (or triple) up on the calcium levels, and increase the sulphate and chloride significantly too.
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Re: RO water filter

Post by hopit » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:50 pm

Yeah, gone for a less minerally profile for this one as usually it is not an option when treating my water. I had to add a small amount of lactic acid to get the ph where I wanted it to be.

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Re: RO water filter

Post by Kev888 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:49 am

Possibly you might be over-diluting with RO, unless thats the effect you wanted. There are occasionally difficult waters around that (as one option) can be helped by diluting, but going too far can be a bit counterproductive to my mind, since you end up having to put more stuff back in again.

To a degree some of this is down to taste and preference for the beer being brewed - so if it is being chosen on purpose (not simply letting foreign software make the decisions) then that is of course the brewer's prerogative. However, calcium is pretty important in brewing from a functional perspective too; I know they go as low as your 57ppm in brewing US beers, but probably best not to go any lower. Personally I don't like to go below 100ppm (and for British styles would routinely aim for 200ppm or above).
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Re: RO water filter

Post by Eric » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:40 pm

Hi Kev, I too have long wondered why some American homebrewers insist all beers should brewed using low mineral liquor. Certainly large International Breweries use RO water to enable consistent brewing across the world. That's not a priority for me and probably many others, but it makes sense for, such as, Guinness to develop beers made using RO water when most of their beer is brewed in Nigeria. It's probably not easy to adjust Nigerian water to be exactly as that out of the Grand Canal through rush beds for the 200 years that Guinness was truly great.

In America it appears many domestic supplies are not pleasant to drink and RO filters are a common fitment in US homes. I don't know anyone in UK faced with this problem. CRS isn't available there, while it is from all decent homebrew shops in UK. I can buy and have both hydrochloric and sulphuric acid. They can however obtain and do use lactic and phosphoric acids, as can we, but as UK commercial and home brewers alike have long since found, both can have limitations. With such diversity it is inevitable we brew in different ways, but why some UK brewers get seduced to follow the amateur techniques of a country with such restrictions that they are simply unable to brew as has been done in UK for over 100 years without examining the vast amount of great detail available to examine, does puzzle me.

While there are more breweries in USA today than UK, that was only the case recently, but across time the traditional commercial American brewer appears to have brewed with less calcium than his equivalent in Britain. However, both would likely agree that calcium should be between 100 and 200ppm, as stated in many reference, text and handbooks used at universities and other institutions worldwide that teach and research brewing had they participated in such education. Apart from offerings by a handful of self proclaimed expert homebrewing Americans and their followers, it is hard to find any academically acknowledged material that advises brewing with very low levels of calcium unless the product is then filtered and artificial carbonation or undergo a sustained period of lagering. Neither is easy for the typical homebrewer. An odd mislaid bottle of my early brews experienced the latter to become very drinkable when uneathed from under the kitchen sink after 2 years.

I like the following paper and discussion. From just after the end of prohibition, they are more than 80 years old. They would seem to confirm several differences that have not changed in all that time, American drinkers preferring cold fizzy lager with ales also served cold and very hoppy. They are reported to Burtonise their water, but it was soft from observation by one British brewer of the time. An interesting read that makes me wonder if our beers will come any closer in the next 80 years and what could change on which side to make it so? Most of all I liked one sentence near the end of the paper, in 1936.........

Owing to climatic and other conditions in the States it was necessary that beers should not be too satiating, hence the use of maize and rice.

I had to look up the word "satiating", apparently it means "satisfying to the full". Well, eighty odd years later it might appear much the same applies, for I'm reasonably satisfied that made with 57ppm calcium a beer would indeed meet the priority suggested in the paper and not be too satiating. But maybe were a bottle to somehow spend something like 2 years under an old time kitchen sink, who knows?
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Kev888
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Re: RO water filter

Post by Kev888 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:51 am

Yes I agree Eric, and thanks also for the links - interesting to see some of the recent history there. One hears a great deal about the long, proud history and careful development of brewing in some countries, but I confess not to have run across much in that line from over the pond.

Just to be clear, I am not criticising any country's beer or saying people shouldn't brew to any style they wish; it is important that there continue to be a wide variety of practices and styles from all around the world. In fact that is my concern, this diversity appears to be getting lost in modern home-brewing - largely through the worldwide popularity of relatively few pieces of software & hardware, and their accompanying info. Not only do they tend to encourage their own approach for all users, but some aspects seem pretty shaky to begin with.

IMO that latter includes brewing with very little calcium. This is not even an inherent consequence of using RO to dilute, since it is usually quite easy to add calcium (as well as sulphate and chloride etc) as needed; in commercial circles who use RO this is typically done to normal levels. To brew with as little calcium as some home-brewing circles do, I would have to 'really' dislike mineral favours in beer to the extent that it took priority over most else. Where that isn't the case, and generally it isn't, I cannot accept it as good brewing practice to be propagated around the world.
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Re: RO water filter

Post by vacant » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:47 pm

Just an update on RO filter systems. I've used mine for 30 brews in five years and have not changed any filters. Salifert tests before most brews confirm the method of mixing (e.g.) 10% very hard 270 tap water with 90% RO aiming for 27 alkalinity is getting predictable results.

Today I remembered I had a TDS meter! Dusted it off, RO water giving 009, tap water giving 174 so the filter is still removing 95%. I also found the TDS meter has a digital thermometer mode #-o
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Re: RO water filter

Post by timbobist » Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:57 pm

Hi Im Interested in getting a ro filter, what one did you get? Cheers

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Re: RO water filter

Post by vacant » Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:44 am

timbobist wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:57 pm
Hi Im Interested in getting a ro filter, what one did you get? Cheers
This sort. Plenty of 3 stage systems on ebay for under £35.
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Re: RO water filter

Post by timbobist » Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:18 pm

Nice one 🍺

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