Boiler Power Control

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Re: Boiler Power Control

Post by k1100t » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:34 am

Jocky wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:36 am
For an 80c steep having a PID is way overkill. The temperature won't drop that much if you throw the hops in at 80c and put the lid back on.
I found that with my previous plastic setup, I would occasionally have to switch the boiler back on during the 80°C steep. Most likely due to me brewing in my uninsulated shed in winter. Just trying to cover all my bases.
Jocky wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:36 am
For the purpose of power management in the boil an SSvR and POT will do the job. An EZboil appears to be PID and SSvR all in one box.
The Digital SSR Power Regulator with Built-in SSR (DSPR2) is only rated for 3A load, so pretty useless for a 3kw element.

Both the Digital SSR Power Regulator for Wort Boiling Control (DSPR1) and the EZboil for Boiling, Step Mashing, and Low Oxygen (LODO) Brewing (DSPR320) still require an SSR:
Please note, this unit should be used with SSR (see our 5A, 25A, 40A, 80A, 100A SSR), it's not compatible with Solid State Voltage Regulators (SSVR).
I think their main selling point, is that they are brewing specific. So allow for some specific brewing process control that you maybe can't do with things like the Inkbird etc.
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Re: Boiler Power Control

Post by Sorcerer » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:49 am

Would this be overkill, you could potentially use it for rims also, by switching via a selector switch between rims and boil kettle, which would change over the digital temperature probe, the element, and pump control via relays?
I have its predecessor ardbir for controlling a biab set up, and its hady to be able to programme hop schedule reminders, plus step mashes. I haven't used this model yet though.
https://smartpid.com/smart-homebrewing/

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Re: Boiler Power Control

Post by Jocky » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:32 pm

How cold was your steep getting? You're not really getting much in the way of alpha acid isomerisation at that temperature anyway, so if flavour/aroma is your goal then even dropping down below 60c isn't a problem for extraction (in fact Dr Peter Darby of the British Hop association said to a group of us on a tour of the national hop collection that to preserve the volatiles you should steep nearer to 60c).


Back on the controllers...
If you're controlling a 1kW+ element with a controller that monitors temperature (e.g. PID, EZBoil, STC1000, DSPR2) you're going to need an SSR on the output. These as well as plug and play controllers like the Inkbird may have a relay built in, but they're only safe to switch a few amps at best.

On the other hand an SSvR and a POT won't monitor the temperature for you, they just let you manually set how much power you want to apply. It's a cheap way to regulate power (e.g. to reduce a boil from rolling to a gentle simmer) but won't hold you at a set temperature automatically.

If you want a temperature controller then there are a few options:

A basic temperature controller like an STC-1000 just turns power on and off around a set point. Drop below the set point by a preset amount and you get 100% power until it comes back to the set point. It's cheap and good for HLT or fermentation control, but you end up getting under/overshoots.

A PID is a much more advanced controller that is designed to get you to and keep you at a set point without over or undershoot. It runs an algorithm to determine how much power to apply at any given point, and then turns the power on and off over a period of time, which is usually as low as 2 seconds (e.g. when it needs 75% power it turns the element on for 1.5 seconds then off for 0.5 seconds).
While they sound brilliant, the complexity can cause its own problems as they need tuning for a system and volume.

Not a major issue, but not ideal for an HLT that you're draining during the brew day - you start the day needing to heat 50 litres, but by the time you get to 25 or 10 litres it'll still be firing the element to keep it at temperature as if you still had 50 litres in the tank. Some will also have a manual mode which allows you to select the % of time you want to have the element on.

I have a PID which I got with an eye to setting up RIMS or HERMS, but currently I've turned off all the PID control and use it to control my HLT in the basic on/off mode. I do this as it has a programmable timer so I can set up the night before a brew day.

The EZBoil (DSPR120/320) is brewing specific. It's not a PID, but implements many of the features of a PID in a brewing specific way (whereas a PID is designed to manage anything from a paint spray drying booth to an industrial furnace), so should be simpler. It also appears to use burst fire control, whereby it switches the power on/off many times per second.
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Re: Boiler Power Control

Post by k1100t » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:59 pm

Sorcerer wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:49 am
Would this be overkill, you could potentially use it for rims also, by switching via a selector switch between rims and boil kettle, which would change over the digital temperature probe, the element, and pump control via relays?
I have its predecessor ardbir for controlling a biab set up, and its hady to be able to programme hop schedule reminders, plus step mashes. I haven't used this model yet though.
https://smartpid.com/smart-homebrewing/
Is that the thing was was being designed with feedback from here a few years back...?
Jocky wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:32 pm
How cold was your steep getting? You're not really getting much in the way of alpha acid isomerisation at that temperature anyway, so if flavour/aroma is your goal then even dropping down below 60c isn't a problem for extraction (in fact Dr Peter Darby of the British Hop association said to a group of us on a tour of the national hop collection that to preserve the volatiles you should steep nearer to 60c).
I haven't brewed for over four years, so can't remember, but it was getting somewhere near 70°C. This was before I'd heard that you can go even lower with out issues. 🤷‍♂️
Jocky wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:32 pm
Back on the controllers...
If you're controlling a 1kW+ element with a controller that monitors temperature (e.g. PID, EZBoil, STC1000, DSPR2) you're going to need an SSR on the output. These as well as plug and play controllers like the Inkbird may have a relay built in, but they're only safe to switch a few amps at best.

On the other hand an SSvR and a POT won't monitor the temperature for you, they just let you manually set how much power you want to apply. It's a cheap way to regulate power (e.g. to reduce a boil from rolling to a gentle simmer) but won't hold you at a set temperature automatically.
If I don't get on with it, I'll switch to a SSvR and POT and move it onto the RIMS tube / HERMS pot.
Jocky wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:32 pm
The EZBoil (DSPR120/320) is brewing specific. It's not a PID, but implements many of the features of a PID in a brewing specific way (whereas a PID is designed to manage anything from a paint spray drying booth to an industrial furnace), so should be simpler. It also appears to use burst fire control, whereby it switches the power on/off many times per second.
Even though it's listed under Power Regulators, I'd missed that it isn't a PID. Does sounds like the ideal solution though, shame about the final cost taking into account shipping and import duty.
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Re: Boiler Power Control

Post by LeeH » Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:54 pm

Nearly all controllers have a 0-100% manual mode, are cheap as chips, flexible and a doddle to set up.

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Re: Boiler Power Control

Post by Jocky » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:17 pm

Sorry I couldn't find this before (I thought they had stopped selling them), but if you want a cheap boil power controller then this is a good option: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4000W-220V-S ... 1965221696

Someone wrote a guide to using it here: https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/thre ... tor.74112/
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Re: Boiler Power Control

Post by k1100t » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:22 pm

Jocky wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:17 pm
Sorry I couldn't find this before (I thought they had stopped selling them), but if you want a cheap boil power controller then this is a good option: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4000W-220V-S ... 1965221696
Similar idea to the complete unit Haydnexport posted at the start of the thread.
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Re: Boiler Power Control

Post by orlando » Sat May 02, 2020 7:22 am

A vigorous boil is an important part of the process. Simmering is something to be avoided. Review this before you commit. It gives six major reasons why a good robust boil is critical for beer, from someone you can really trust. Avoid boil overs by adding hops and keeping the lid off.
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Re: Boiler Power Control

Post by k1100t » Sat May 02, 2020 8:24 am

orlando wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 7:22 am
A vigorous boil is an important part of the process. Simmering is something to be avoided. Review this before you commit. It gives six major reasons why a good robust boil is critical for beer, from someone you can really trust. Avoid boil overs by adding hops and keeping the lid off.
I'll give it a listen while I'm doing my chores. The boil overs were more a factor of me pushing my old kit to its limits, trying to eke out every last ml...

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Re: Boiler Power Control

Post by LeeH » Sat May 02, 2020 10:52 am

orlando wrote:A vigorous boil is an important part of the process. Simmering is something to be avoided. Review this before you commit. It gives six major reasons why a good robust boil is critical for beer, from someone you can really trust. Avoid boil overs by adding hops and keeping the lid off.
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Re: Boiler Power Control

Post by k1100t » Fri May 08, 2020 3:08 pm

orlando wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 7:22 am
A vigorous boil is an important part of the process. Simmering is something to be avoided. Review this before you commit. It gives six major reasons why a good robust boil is critical for beer, from someone you can really trust. Avoid boil overs by adding hops and keeping the lid off.
Just listened to it while cutting the grass. I've never had an issue with DMS, but the stuff about clarity was interesting. Since I never ran my old boiler at full chat, I think I'm still happy with my choice. 👍
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Re: Boiler Power Control

Post by orlando » Fri May 08, 2020 5:03 pm

k1100t wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 3:08 pm
Since I never ran my old boiler at full chat, I think I'm still happy with my choice. 👍
You can lead a horse to water.... :)
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Re: Boiler Power Control

Post by Haydnexport » Thu May 14, 2020 10:57 am

guypettigrew wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:37 pm


Why do you need power control on your boiler? I boil about 37 litres using 2 x 2.4Kw elements which are on throughout the 75 minute boil. Gets me about 23 litres in the fermenter.



Guy
Is that a misstype? surely you dont boil off that much? thats around a 1/3 of the volume??

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Re: Boiler Power Control

Post by guypettigrew » Thu May 14, 2020 12:31 pm

Not a mistype. I sparge to about 37 litres in the boiler. At this point the last runnings are down to about 1.009.

A good strong boil results from using 4.8 kW for the whole time the wort is boiling. It's in an open top kettle with a wall mounted strong extractor fan just above it.

After running the wort into the fermenter at the end of the boil there's about a litre or so left behind and about 23 litres in the fermenter.

If I just boiled with one element, using 2.4 kW, then the evaporation rate would be much less, I'm sure. But this gets me crystal clear wort running into the fermenter. Plus I'm used to it, so I know how much wort to boil to get the volume wanted in the FV.

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Re: Boiler Power Control

Post by orlando » Thu May 14, 2020 2:43 pm

I do the same, amounts to about 20% for me on a 60 minute boil. There's a lot to be said for a good rolling boil. Look out for Charlie Bamforth's comments on boiling on the BeerSmith Channel on YouTube.
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