RIMS Questions

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Rhodesy
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RIMS Questions

Post by Rhodesy » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:08 am

Hi,


I have been toying with both HERMS & RIMS and I am almost set on HERMS however I wanted to check a couple of things around RIMS just to make sure I have covered everything. Really appreciate any help.

1) Is a PID essential to control the the heat or would a suitably rated temperature controller with a decent probe do the job? If the element was a 3000W LWD element would this cause an issue as you are not controlling the wattage but only specifying the target temperature? Would scorching occur?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/30A-12V-AC-LE ... 5d57392677

2) Would the RIMS tube be required to be mounted or could it sit freely on a wooden table or stone ground (interim measure). Assuming the element is earthed is there any further precautions to take?

3) Should the tube be horizontal or vertical. I have read conflicting reports.

4) Does the flow from the Mash Tun need to be full on to avoid the tube being filled too slowly? Should the amount of tubing be minimal i.e. everything close together?

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themadhippy
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Re: RIMS Questions

Post by themadhippy » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:07 pm

you are aware the temp controller youve likned to is a 12v model,whilst it will switch 240v, the magic smoke will escape if you try and run the controll side from 240v
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Fil
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Re: RIMS Questions

Post by Fil » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:21 pm

Having played with a copper Herms coil in the past and now opting to include a Rims rocket in my big kit i can offer my thoughts on the subject but I dont consider myself an authority, just an interested amateur..

1) Is a PID essential to control the the heat or would a suitably rated temperature controller with a decent probe do the job? If the element was a 3000W LWD element would this cause an issue as you are not controlling the wattage but only specifying the target temperature? Would scorching occur?
A lwd element shouldn't scorch as long as the flow is sufficient, a minimum flow rate of 2.81l per minute is recommended for the Rims rocket solution with a 3.5kw LWD element fitted, so assuming a linear relationship between power and minimum flow, with a 3kw element (6/7 X 2.81) a minimum flow of 2.4l per minute should be maintained to avoid scorching issues..

on off control with a fine degree of control should be fine, PIDS are a bit overkill at our volume levels as their primary role is optimising power use for efficiency purposes.

personally im still on the fence as to employing a PID controller or a stc1000+pi reflashed controller with a relay upgrade..
2) Would the RIMS tube be required to be mounted or could it sit freely on a wooden table or stone ground (interim measure). Assuming the element is earthed is there any further precautions to take?
Position in relation to the source liquid level is crucial, it Must sit below the liquid level so is always full and cannot drain empty during use, (see below) but fix in place on a mount to ensure no accidents.
3) Should the tube be horizontal or vertical. I have read conflicting reports.
VERTICAL - so any air that gets trapped/pushed through rises above the heating element quickly and avoids a dry element.

4) Does the flow from the Mash Tun need to be full on to avoid the tube being filled too slowly? Should the amount of tubing be minimal i.e. everything close together?
other than ensuring the system is running at or above the minimum flow rate befor the power is turned on
the length of plumbing employed isnt that important as your applying heat to counter any loss, but it makes sense not to have too much plumbing. But dont save a few inches in plumbing at the expense of easy setup your heat input at 3kw should be ample to counter any radiant heat loss, and the system should soon get upto operating temp..

hope thats useful and if im shooting wide anywhere im sure someone will correct me soon ;)
ist update for months n months..
Fermnting: not a lot..
Conditioning: nowt
Maturing: Challenger smash, and a kit lager
Drinking: dry one minikeg left in the store
Coming Soon Lots planned for the near future nowt for the immediate :(

Rhodesy
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Posts: 654
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Re: RIMS Questions

Post by Rhodesy » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:40 pm

themadhippy wrote:you are aware the temp controller youve likned to is a 12v model,whilst it will switch 240v, the magic smoke will escape if you try and run the controll side from 240v
Apologies, was in a rush this morning and have clearly linked the wrong controller. I meant the below

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/220V-Digital- ... 43c08e2811

Rhodesy
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Re: RIMS Questions

Post by Rhodesy » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:42 pm

Fil wrote:Having played with a copper Herms coil in the past and now opting to include a Rims rocket in my big kit i can offer my thoughts on the subject but I dont consider myself an authority, just an interested amateur..

1) Is a PID essential to control the the heat or would a suitably rated temperature controller with a decent probe do the job? If the element was a 3000W LWD element would this cause an issue as you are not controlling the wattage but only specifying the target temperature? Would scorching occur?
A lwd element shouldn't scorch as long as the flow is sufficient, a minimum flow rate of 2.81l per minute is recommended for the Rims rocket solution with a 3.5kw LWD element fitted, so assuming a linear relationship between power and minimum flow, with a 3kw element (6/7 X 2.81) a minimum flow of 2.4l per minute should be maintained to avoid scorching issues..

on off control with a fine degree of control should be fine, PIDS are a bit overkill at our volume levels as their primary role is optimising power use for efficiency purposes.

personally im still on the fence as to employing a PID controller or a stc1000+pi reflashed controller with a relay upgrade..
2) Would the RIMS tube be required to be mounted or could it sit freely on a wooden table or stone ground (interim measure). Assuming the element is earthed is there any further precautions to take?
Position in relation to the source liquid level is crucial, it Must sit below the liquid level so is always full and cannot drain empty during use, (see below) but fix in place on a mount to ensure no accidents.
3) Should the tube be horizontal or vertical. I have read conflicting reports.
VERTICAL - so any air that gets trapped/pushed through rises above the heating element quickly and avoids a dry element.

4) Does the flow from the Mash Tun need to be full on to avoid the tube being filled too slowly? Should the amount of tubing be minimal i.e. everything close together?
other than ensuring the system is running at or above the minimum flow rate befor the power is turned on
the length of plumbing employed isnt that important as your applying heat to counter any loss, but it makes sense not to have too much plumbing. But dont save a few inches in plumbing at the expense of easy setup your heat input at 3kw should be ample to counter any radiant heat loss, and the system should soon get upto operating temp..

hope thats useful and if im shooting wide anywhere im sure someone will correct me soon ;)

Many thanks Fil, your points have been most helpful

Fil
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Re: RIMS Questions

Post by Fil » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:56 pm

fwiw what turned me off herms was the closed coil and the fact my build used the coil horizontally, so a clean dry drain was a problem, if any toxic verdigris were to form inside the coil i wouldnt be aware..
A Stainless steel coil would avoid any such issues but wouldnt be as efficient in heat transfer there is a difference of 40X between the coeficient of heat transfer between copper and Stainless steel.
ist update for months n months..
Fermnting: not a lot..
Conditioning: nowt
Maturing: Challenger smash, and a kit lager
Drinking: dry one minikeg left in the store
Coming Soon Lots planned for the near future nowt for the immediate :(

Rhodesy
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 654
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:09 pm
Location: Glasgow

Re: RIMS Questions

Post by Rhodesy » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:02 pm

Fil wrote:fwiw what turned me off herms was the closed coil and the fact my build used the coil horizontally, so a clean dry drain was a problem, if any toxic verdigris were to form inside the coil i wouldnt be aware..
A Stainless steel coil would avoid any such issues but wouldnt be as efficient in heat transfer there is a difference of 40X between the coeficient of heat transfer between copper and Stainless steel.

Yeah, it is partly for those reasons I am having second thoughts and thinking more about RIMS. Whatever choice I make will involve even more kit (when does it end :D ) so without rushing in I am trying to gauge as to what would suit me best.

No doubt in a couple of years I will be going on about getting a Braumeister :D

Rhodesy
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Re: RIMS Questions

Post by Rhodesy » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:54 am

Does anyone also have some ideas of how to mount it vertically in terms of clamps etc? If it were a standard RIMS tube attached to a piece of say 2 x 4 wood which in turn is mounted to the stand/table I am using?

Fil
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Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: Cowley, Oxford

Re: RIMS Questions

Post by Fil » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:48 pm

Someone has used these sort of stand off pipe mounts to great effect with the 24v dv mag coupled pumps, a similar solution could be applied to the rims tube

http://www.bes.co.uk/products/138a.asp

the ones im thinking of are nice and shiny with a black rubber inner sleeve..
ist update for months n months..
Fermnting: not a lot..
Conditioning: nowt
Maturing: Challenger smash, and a kit lager
Drinking: dry one minikeg left in the store
Coming Soon Lots planned for the near future nowt for the immediate :(

Rhodesy
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 654
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:09 pm
Location: Glasgow

Re: RIMS Questions

Post by Rhodesy » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:50 pm

Looks good, thanks again Fil

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