My igloo RIMS system - help needed please!

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Rhodesy
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Re: My igloo RIMS system - help needed please!

Post by Rhodesy » Sat May 02, 2015 5:42 pm

Cxp073 wrote:I'd prefer not to add more gizmos really - although it does look cool ;) does anyone here use the 3kw element from Mr Lard on their rims system?
I actually just took delivery of mine yesterday (wired up today) but still to test.

The element itself didnt really indicate how to wire up. Is this ok?

Image

Fil
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Re: My igloo RIMS system - help needed please!

Post by Fil » Sat May 02, 2015 6:02 pm

I would invest in 3 x crimp on eyelets to connect the element up with..

i did and then wrapped the lot with insulating tape and as a further precaution cut a slip of pet pop bottle to line the metal shroud too..

Image

its a lot of metal and a hi amp draw, one lil stray strand of copper = a shocking big bang!!

these are my kettle and hlt elements btw..
ist update for months n months..
Fermnting: not a lot..
Conditioning: nowt
Maturing: Challenger smash, and a kit lager
Drinking: dry one minikeg left in the store
Coming Soon Lots planned for the near future nowt for the immediate :(

Cxp073

Re: My igloo RIMS system - help needed please!

Post by Cxp073 » Sat May 02, 2015 6:35 pm

Yep - I used crimp on eyelets and wrapped anything that looked too close together with electrical tape. Just do it right the first time and you'll never need to look back.

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orlando
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Re: My igloo RIMS system - help needed please!

Post by orlando » Sun May 03, 2015 7:48 am

Cxp073 wrote:I'd prefer not to add more gizmos really - although it does look cool ;) does anyone here use the 3kw element from Mr Lard on their rims system?
Yep, I do. The approach I take is to have the wort returned to the MT as gently as possible, I use the Electric Brewery system (as recommended by Lardy) this is a length of coiled silicon hose, about 5', which I put into a hole in the side of a perforated aluminium foil container to spread the return wort across the grain bed so it doesn't disturb the forming of a grain filter (the foil part is my "innovation"). Haven't measured the flow rate but it isn't a lot, the PID copes better with it this way so you don't produce wild swings in temperature as you would with a higher flow rate. If you have a fairly even temp in the mash before you start recirculation and it is already close to the mash temp you are looking for, it settles down very quickly and you hardly hear the RIMS firing. Once you swap the probe round to the top of the RIMS you should be in a position to experience this so no need for any other controller. It doesn't hurt to start the pump at a good flow rate to begin with as you may find you need to shift a bit of fine grain that has settled under the FB first. Once you can see this initial cloudy wort has begun to change to a slightly less dark colour that is when you restrict the flow, everything should then settle down and very quickly you can see the wort in the hoses becoming clearer.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

Cxp073

Re: My igloo RIMS system - help needed please!

Post by Cxp073 » Sun May 03, 2015 12:01 pm

orlando wrote:
Cxp073 wrote:I'd prefer not to add more gizmos really - although it does look cool ;) does anyone here use the 3kw element from Mr Lard on their rims system?
Yep, I do. The approach I take is to have the wort returned to the MT as gently as possible, I use the Electric Brewery system (as recommended by Lardy) this is a length of coiled silicon hose, about 5', which I put into a hole in the side of a perforated aluminium foil container to spread the return wort across the grain bed so it doesn't disturb the forming of a grain filter (the foil part is my "innovation"). Haven't measured the flow rate but it isn't a lot, the PID copes better with it this way so you don't produce wild swings in temperature as you would with a higher flow rate. If you have a fairly even temp in the mash before you start recirculation and it is already close to the mash temp you are looking for, it settles down very quickly and you hardly hear the RIMS firing. Once you swap the probe round to the top of the RIMS you should be in a position to experience this so no need for any other controller. It doesn't hurt to start the pump at a good flow rate to begin with as you may find you need to shift a bit of fine grain that has settled under the FB first. Once you can see this initial cloudy wort has begun to change to a slightly less dark colour that is when you restrict the flow, everything should then settle down and very quickly you can see the wort in the hoses becoming clearer.
Thanks Orlando.

When you say switch the sensor around to the top, do you mean put the sensor on the 'out' side entrance of the tube, and the out tube / silicon hose return coming right of the top of the tube? If you look at the picture of my system above, I currently have the sensor inserted into the very top of the tube.

Rhodesy
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Re: My igloo RIMS system - help needed please!

Post by Rhodesy » Sun May 03, 2015 12:03 pm

Thanks guys, I will take your advice there as stray wires is a concern if out in the open.

Waiting on some clamps from Angel Homebrew arriving to allow me to attach this to the brew stand where I then hope to test this midweek. I have a Blichmann autosparge I plan to utilise for recirculation back into the MT which I hope works well. Hope to post some pics later in the week once the build is complete. I am using a HLT type temperature control which I hope works well as from my previous posts/threads you will see I am not the type to build a PID. Unlike the STC controllers it is rare to find prewired ones and being quoted £250 is a bit out of my reach just now.

Cxp073

Re: My igloo RIMS system - help needed please!

Post by Cxp073 » Sun May 03, 2015 12:52 pm

Rhodesy wrote: am using a HLT type temperature control which I hope works well as from my previous posts/threads you will see I am not the type to build a PID. Unlike the STC controllers it is rare to find prewired ones and being quoted £250 is a bit out of my reach just now.
Fil convinced me to wire my own up. I was toying with the idea but it seemed beyond my confidence level. I can assure you that it is rather easy to do - it just takes some time to gather the PROPER parts and tools.

I am going to be posting a write up on my blog soon that runs through how to do it. I think that when you have the right parts / tools to hand you would be fine and I would be happy to help.

Fil
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Re: My igloo RIMS system - help needed please!

Post by Fil » Sun May 03, 2015 12:57 pm

Rhodesy wrote:Thanks guys, I will take your advice there as stray wires is a concern if out in the open.

Waiting on some clamps from Angel Homebrew arriving to allow me to attach this to the brew stand where I then hope to test this midweek. I have a Blichmann autosparge I plan to utilise for recirculation back into the MT which I hope works well. Hope to post some pics later in the week once the build is complete. I am using a HLT type temperature control which I hope works well as from my previous posts/threads you will see I am not the type to build a PID. Unlike the STC controllers it is rare to find prewired ones and being quoted £250 is a bit out of my reach just now.
Its not a difficult job to box up a pid, imho the hardest bit is cutting the holes for fittings in an abs plastic box (drill and hacksaw blade are the tools i use)

in addition to a pid controller you need:
a box ( probably the most expensive aspect after the pid ? upto £20???)
a heatsink and SSR (£5-6 from ebay china)
a couple of cable glands to secure flex in and out of the box (£2-3)
a small cable gland or a socket for the probe wire (3 pin audio xlr sockets/plugs are cheap robust and popular) (£5?)
a 15a rated leggo brick style connection strip ( £1-2)
some flex (rated to 15/16a to be on the safe side) (£ 5??)
and a plug/socket to connect the power out to the element (16a commando sockets/plugs are £2-3 each)

so with a £30 pid your looking at £70-80 Max total cost probably a lot less....
(Im guessing at the costs above been a while since i bought the bits)

to wire up use the leggo brick connector to attach the live neutral and earth feeds form the power in flex.
connect a live and neutral wire to the connector strip and connect to the power in contacts of the pid controller. (pid powered - done hehe)


connect input earth to the output earth
connect input neutral to the output neutral
connect input live to the in side of the ssr (clearly marked)
and connect the output live to the out side of the ssr (clearly marked)
(Element power done)

from the pid controllers dc drive terminals connect to the ssr drive terminals.
(ssr control done)
connect the probe or probe socket to the probe connectors on the pid controller
(probe done)
for safety an additional earth connection to the heatsink and your done..


However In addition i would suggest a switch on the live output from the ssr to isolate the element as ssrs can bleed a didy bit of current when in the off (unpowerd) state..

its very simple and straight forward, and if in any doubt do as you did above and post a pic for comment..

if really stuck PM me i have a spare pid almost boxed, i could finish off and let you have for cost plus actual pnp and perhaps a token gesture for the work. :oops:
ist update for months n months..
Fermnting: not a lot..
Conditioning: nowt
Maturing: Challenger smash, and a kit lager
Drinking: dry one minikeg left in the store
Coming Soon Lots planned for the near future nowt for the immediate :(

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orlando
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Re: My igloo RIMS system - help needed please!

Post by orlando » Sun May 03, 2015 3:16 pm

Cxp073 wrote:
orlando wrote:
Cxp073 wrote:I'd prefer not to add more gizmos really - although it does look cool ;) does anyone here use the 3kw element from Mr Lard on their rims system?
Yep, I do. The approach I take is to have the wort returned to the MT as gently as possible, I use the Electric Brewery system (as recommended by Lardy) this is a length of coiled silicon hose, about 5', which I put into a hole in the side of a perforated aluminium foil container to spread the return wort across the grain bed so it doesn't disturb the forming of a grain filter (the foil part is my "innovation"). Haven't measured the flow rate but it isn't a lot, the PID copes better with it this way so you don't produce wild swings in temperature as you would with a higher flow rate. If you have a fairly even temp in the mash before you start recirculation and it is already close to the mash temp you are looking for, it settles down very quickly and you hardly hear the RIMS firing. Once you swap the probe round to the top of the RIMS you should be in a position to experience this so no need for any other controller. It doesn't hurt to start the pump at a good flow rate to begin with as you may find you need to shift a bit of fine grain that has settled under the FB first. Once you can see this initial cloudy wort has begun to change to a slightly less dark colour that is when you restrict the flow, everything should then settle down and very quickly you can see the wort in the hoses becoming clearer.
Thanks Orlando.

When you say switch the sensor around to the top, do you mean put the sensor on the 'out' side entrance of the tube, and the out tube / silicon hose return coming right of the top of the tube? If you look at the picture of my system above, I currently have the sensor inserted into the very top of the tube.
Yes, although I call that port the return/output port, the entrance/input is the bottom port. I don't have a picture of the current setup and the camera is in Australia or I would show you exactly, but it is as described, the sensor/probe is near the top of the tube and at a right angle to it. At the very top of the tube is where the return hose attaches, I use quick disconnects so the male part sticks up from there. This orientation means the wort has to flow over the sensor, has no choice, so the reading is always correct. I calibrated the sensor against my Thermapen and can read to within .5 of a degree difference between the probe and the returned wort, accounted for by the very last length of hose before retuning to the MT. Swap the sensor/probe to the port underneath where it is now and you are back in the game. :D
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

Cxp073

My igloo RIMS system - help needed please!

Post by Cxp073 » Sun May 03, 2015 3:21 pm

orlando wrote:
Yes, although I call that port the return/output port, the entrance/input is the bottom port. I don't have a picture of the current setup and the camera is in Australia or I would show you exactly, but it is as described, the sensor/probe is near the top of the tube and at a right angle to it. At the very top of the tube is where the return hose attaches, I use quick disconnects so the male part sticks up from there. This orientation means the wort has to flow over the sensor, has no choice, so the reading is always correct. I calibrated the sensor against my Thermapen and can read to within .5 of a degree difference between the probe and the returned wort, accounted for by the very last length of hose before retuning to the MT. Swap the sensor/probe to the port underneath where it is now and you are back in the game. :D
Thanks Orlando - I'm looking forward to giving this a try.

Do you use a 3kw element?

My only worry is that I have to have the pump on full throttle or else my heater starts boiling the wort. I wonder if this change is sensor placement will change that. My only concern is that even with the tube horizontal, and the sensor definitely immersed in liquid, it still boils.

Full throttle is about 9 litres per minute, which from what I understand is too fast?

Fil
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Re: My igloo RIMS system - help needed please!

Post by Fil » Sun May 03, 2015 4:43 pm

when the pid has been autotuned it should use the minimum energy required to maintain the target temp, and switch the ssr rapidly to effect a proportional output from the 3kw element so if over 5 mins the element is on 20% of the time and off 80 percent of the time the mean output from the element will be 1/5th of 3kw or 600watts..


to autotune set up with a tun full of mash temp water and run the system with a flow that will perculate through the grain bed sufficiently 2-3l per min?? and run the autotune feature, it WILL overheat its part of the learning algorithm however once complete and repeated in pid mode you should find that the element will be switched at a rate just sufficient to maintain the target temp..
ist update for months n months..
Fermnting: not a lot..
Conditioning: nowt
Maturing: Challenger smash, and a kit lager
Drinking: dry one minikeg left in the store
Coming Soon Lots planned for the near future nowt for the immediate :(

User avatar
orlando
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Re: My igloo RIMS system - help needed please!

Post by orlando » Sun May 03, 2015 4:51 pm

Cxp073 wrote:
Do you use a 3kw element?
Yes,as supplied by mrlard.


My only worry is that I have to have the pump on full throttle or else my heater starts boiling the wort. I wonder if this change is sensor placement will change that.
Yes I think it will.
My only concern is that even with the tube horizontal, and the sensor definitely immersed in liquid, it still boils.

Full throttle is about 9 litres per minute, which from what I understand is too fast?
Do not use it horizontal, you run the risk of the wort being at or below the element level, to ensure covering it you would have to run fast. Keep it vertical and you won't have that problem.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

User avatar
orlando
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Posts: 7197
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: My igloo RIMS system - help needed please!

Post by orlando » Sun May 03, 2015 4:53 pm

Fil wrote:when the pid has been autotuned it should use the minimum energy required to maintain the target temp, and switch the ssr rapidly to effect a proportional output from the 3kw element so if over 5 mins the element is on 20% of the time and off 80 percent of the time the mean output from the element will be 1/5th of 3kw or 600watts..


to autotune set up with a tun full of mash temp water and run the system with a flow that will perculate through the grain bed sufficiently 2-3l per min?? and run the autotune feature, it WILL overheat its part of the learning algorithm however once complete and repeated in pid mode you should find that the element will be switched at a rate just sufficient to maintain the target temp..
If you start auto tune when it is within say 5c of your target it will work better.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

Rhodesy
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Re: My igloo RIMS system - help needed please!

Post by Rhodesy » Sun May 03, 2015 6:41 pm

PM'd you Fil

Cxp073

Re: My igloo RIMS system - help needed please!

Post by Cxp073 » Sun May 03, 2015 7:08 pm

orlando wrote:
Do not use it horizontal, you run the risk of the wort being at or below the element level, to ensure covering it you would have to run fast. Keep it vertical and you won't have that problem.
I'm definitely gonna go back to vertical, but out of curiosity - if the input and output of the rims tube are pointed upwards, how could the element possibly become out of contact with the wort whilst it is horizontal. The tube has to fill up for the wort to go up and out of the output tee.

Also, should the Run parameter be manual, auto, or inhibit? What is the difference between the three?

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