Where to stick it?

A forum for those who boldy recirculate where no man has. .... you know the rest
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PeeBee
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Re: Where to stick it?

Post by PeeBee » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:29 pm

EINBREW wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:48 pm
... I don't know what is dodgy about suggesting that if you want to accurately control (the temperature of) a variable, the fluid in the MT, then you must measure that variable? ...
Great, you get to see the temperature actually in the MT. I can't do that, must be nice. And when the MT reaches the desired temperature it will have cut power to the heat-source (HLT).

No more heat input until the MT cools down a bit? As long as you remember to cut power to the pump sending the MT liquid through the HERMS coil 'cos it is now being heated by the over-heated HLT (see earlier post). But maybe cutting power to the pump stops the temperature probe sending reliable information? The probe is no longer in a continuous feed of mash liquid. Might work; probably wont.

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Re: Where to stick it?

Post by PeeBee » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:02 pm

EINBREW wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:41 pm
I can only repeat ...
:?

](*,)

I give up. We can only hope others will put a bit of thought into their design. Perhaps they will favour your take on it?

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Re: Where to stick it?

Post by PeeBee » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:37 am

PeeBee wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:02 pm
... I give up. ...
I can't really give up, that's not helpful to anyone. But I have had to blank "EI*****'s" posts because my head couldn't cope with the logic of the explanations (there are lots of things my head won't cope with!).

I remember earlier posts had a bad "analogy" between rooms full of very fluid air and a cauldron of ... well porridge isn't too far off a mash consistency. From this "analogy" it can be assumed "EI*****" is either a naive youth or forgetful older person - before cheap multiple remote controllers for central heating there was just one controller, and that controlled the boiler temperature! The boiler temperature is still controlled - the room thermostat controls the flow much like my "tongue-in-cheek" suggestion for HERMS in the earlier post.

But there is a point to be made from "EI*****'s" ramblings - HERMS systems are very poor at one aspect: Convergence of set temperature with measured temperature. This convergence can be speeded up by allowing a small potential or actual overshoot, either by tuning the PID controller, or temporarily and manually adjusting the set temperature to be a degree or two higher than the desired temperature, or else come up with some madcap scheme to control the temperature to give the illusion it works (the illusion is as good as the reality if the target is actually met).

When tuning PID controllers the easy mistake to make life harder is have the impression our systems are fast - they're not! Not at all, they are s-l-o-w when compared to other PID controlled system. Far better to ignore the "D" bit and go back to the earlier "PI" type controller (set "D" to zero, or the lowest value allowed - it's 2 on my Auber PIDs).

(24/3/18 18:00 - Minor edit to delete conflictory language).
Last edited by PeeBee on Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Where to stick it?

Post by demig » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:51 pm

Mods I can’t be the only one getting a little sick of the combative nature of some of the posts recently, it spoils some good discussion......

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Re: Where to stick it?

Post by Jim » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:24 pm

I don't want to have to remove posts on this thread, so let's keep it civil and respectful please.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Philip K. Dick

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Re: Where to stick it?

Post by f00b4r » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:15 pm

demig wrote:Mods I can’t be the only one getting a little sick of the combative nature of some of the posts recently, it spoils some good discussion......
I blame the op, they set the tone with that thread title.... ;)

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Re: Where to stick it?

Post by Jim » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:04 pm

f00b4r wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:15 pm
demig wrote:Mods I can’t be the only one getting a little sick of the combative nature of some of the posts recently, it spoils some good discussion......
I blame the op, they set the tone with that thread title.... ;)
:lol:
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Philip K. Dick

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Re: Where to stick it?

Post by PeeBee » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:21 am

demig wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:51 pm
Mods I can’t be the only one getting a little sick of the combative nature of some of the posts recently, it spoils some good discussion......
Agree.

I use the forum features when things get sticky so all I see is:

*******, who is currently on your ignore list, made this post.

Perhaps people need advising or reminding there is such an option? But you still get a link to "display this post" which needs some self-control not to click. And there is all the blarney for folk to put up with before it's activated.

Though forums need a bit of conflict so people are reminded that the advise on offer isn't necessarily the correct advice. They should know that the advise they choose to take is thier decision alone, or else go elsewhere (temporarily!) and find more advice to help them make a decision.

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Re: Where to stick it?

Post by Heron1952 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:14 am

PeeBee wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:21 am
demig wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:51 pm
Mods I can’t be the only one getting a little sick of the combative nature of some of the posts recently, it spoils some good discussion......
Agree.

I use the forum features when things get sticky so all I see is:

*******, who is currently on your ignore list, made this post.

Perhaps people need advising or reminding there is such an option? But you still get a link to "display this post" which needs some self-control not to click. And there is all the blarney for folk to put up with before it's activated.

Though forums need a bit of conflict so people are reminded that the advise on offer isn't necessarily the correct advice. They should know that the advise they choose to take is thier decision alone, or else go elsewhere (temporarily!) and find more advice to help them make a decision.
Done what a good idea😀
aka Rhys

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Re: Where to stick it?

Post by stavros » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:36 am

PeeBee, it would appear that you need reminded of the acceptable posting guidelines.

Confilct is not inevitable! Debate and differences of opinion, yes.

You use personally insulting language, which the mods should remove. I believe if I as new member use the same I would be sanctioned. Mods, why is this allowed, is it related to length of service?

Why don't you censor your language, rather than tell everyone else to censor you via the ignore option.

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Re: Where to stick it?

Post by PeeBee » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:04 pm

stavros wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:36 am
PeeBee, it would appear that you need reminded of the acceptable posting guidelines.

Confilct is not inevitable! Debate and differences of opinion, yes.

You use personally insulting language, which the mods should remove. I believe if I as new member use the same I would be sanctioned. Mods, why is this allowed, is it related to length of service?

Why don't you censor your language, rather than tell everyone else to censor you via the ignore option.
Okay, censoring done.

But I could only find one instance that might be considered "insulting". And I've only been on his forum a couple of years, hardly long 'length of service'. And I don't tell people to ignore my posts if they don't like what I say, I was expressing a method of personally suppressing an antagonist's posts when you feel like you are being drawn into being an antagonist too. Hang on ... are you ("stavros") just feeling left out and positioning yourself as the next antagonist?

******************************************************************

Anyway, as penance I'm working on an explanation of temperature probe positioning that should even make "EINBREW" happy. I was arguing with EINBREW's explanations of where a temperature probe should be placed (for HERMS), but I am beginning to warm to the possibilities of EINBREW's somewhat 'unconventional' positioning. I'm even considering making the modification to my brewery? But this will probably take 2-3 days - watch this space?

So out of conflict might come a valuable shift to a way of thinking ... or else a bigot. Hopefully I will never descend into being the latter.

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Re: Where to stick it?

Post by PeeBee » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:04 pm

As promised, treatise on temperature sensor placement has been written and posted. A new thread so it escapes the baggage in this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=80501

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Re: Where to stick it?

Post by Troutman47 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:12 pm

Did I start something? :D :D

Thank you for everyone’s input.
I still haven’t completed converting the kegs to kettles, I want to polish them before cutting holes and that needs to be done outside and the weather’s been crap.
I’ve booked a week off work to get them done and guess what, it’s forecast to rain! :(

Do you want to know where I’m going to stick it? (The temp sensor that is!)

On the outside of the mash tun as it goes in.

Right, I’m off! No arguing while I’m gone!! [-X :lol:

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Re: Where to stick it?

Post by PeeBee » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:05 pm

Troutman47 wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:12 pm
... On the outside of the mash tun as it goes in. ...
In my "treatise" linked above your chosen sensor location would "B". The "treatise" also sways towards "B" as the best location whereas I was arguing for "A". Not that "A" doesn't have an advantage over "B", but for the majority that advantage wouldn't apply anyway.

So I managed to talk myself into seeing arguing for placing the probe at "A" was a waste of time. But if folk have a setup with the controlling probe in the HLT ("A") it'll still work.

Guess I managed to smudge any forum cred I might of had.



Just sticking the probe on the outside of vessel (no doubt with a wad of insulation over it, like many brewers do) isn't the best but will do to start with. You might be able to fit the probe in a "tee" to the pipe returning to the mashtun so that the probe is directly in returning mash liquid.

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