Chemsan?

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DDoe
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Chemsan?

Post by DDoe » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:51 am

I was going to buy some Starsan (as recommended elsewhere) but it appears it's no longer available. Chemsan is coming up as an alternative.

Can anyone confirm this is a viable alternative please?

Thanks.

guypettigrew
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Re: Chemsan?

Post by guypettigrew » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:02 pm

Same stuff, different producer.

If you want Starsan, though, it's available from the Malt Miller--as is almost everything you're likely to want!

Guy

DDoe
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Re: Chemsan?

Post by DDoe » Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:10 pm

Thank you.

Kingfisher4
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Re: Chemsan?

Post by Kingfisher4 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:44 pm

guypettigrew wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:02 pm
Same stuff, different producer.

If you want Starsan, though, it's available from the Malt Miller--as is almost everything you're likely to want!
Hi Guy,

I know it's meant to be the same, but I bought some when it was launched at 1/2 price at MM and it looked like I'd not be able to get more Starsan and it doesn't seem to behave the same ( foaming / spraying different from memory), still using up my Starsan so my comparison and efficacy in sterilisation with Chemsan is limited. Just feel more confident in Starsan and whilst expensive, a bottle lasts years and it won't take more than 1 spoiled batch to make me regret not spending a few more pounds on my tried and trusted Starsan.

guypettigrew
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Re: Chemsan?

Post by guypettigrew » Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:15 pm

Kingfisher4 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:44 pm
guypettigrew wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:02 pm
Same stuff, different producer.

If you want Starsan, though, it's available from the Malt Miller--as is almost everything you're likely to want!
Hi Guy,

I know it's meant to be the same, but I bought some when it was launched at 1/2 price at MM and it looked like I'd not be able to get more Starsan and it doesn't seem to behave the same ( foaming / spraying different from memory), still using up my Starsan so my comparison and efficacy in sterilisation with Chemsan is limited. Just feel more confident in Starsan and whilst expensive, a bottle lasts years and it won't take more than 1 spoiled batch to make me regret not spending a few more pounds on my tried and trusted Starsan.
Interesting, K4. It seems to have the same ingredients as Starsan, although it needs diluting at a different rate.

I've just bought some. Won't be using it for a while as there' some Starsan left. Looking forward to finding out how it is. Perhaps I should try it before the Starsan runs out!

Guy

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bitter_dave
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Re: Chemsan?

Post by bitter_dave » Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:57 pm

I’ve just used this chemsan stuff for the last couple of brews I’ve done. No Ill effects so I assume it must have done the trick. Different dosage to starsan but seemed to behave In the same way to me when diluted with water.

Doreblade
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Re: Chemsan?

Post by Doreblade » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:20 pm

No issues here so far - 3 brews done with it. Seems to keep well too as long as your water ph. is correct (below 3.5).

DDoe
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Re: Chemsan?

Post by DDoe » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:36 pm

Thank you all.

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pas8280
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Re: Chemsan?

Post by pas8280 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:25 am

Interesting thread, I started using chemsan three or four brews ago as I had run out of starsan.
I haven’t noticed any difference in its performance, however there is a strong fishy smell coming from it once diluted.
Can’t recall Starsan having the same smell. Anyone else noticed this ?
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Carnot
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Re: Chemsan?

Post by Carnot » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:31 pm

Here we go again. It is perhaps worth discussing sterilastion, disinfection/ sanitisation and the so called no-rinse cleaners. At our level we cannot achieve sterilisation but we can disinfect, the best products, in my humble opinion being oxidising materials such as chlorine and chlorine release agents and oxidisers such as hydrogen peroxide, ozone and oxygen release agents such as sodium percarbonate ( releases hydrogen peroxide). The are others such as peracetic acid. Other dsinfectants exist such as Jeyes fluid but we would not use such materials in food applications. Some caustic based cleaners will also show some diinfection properties as will some quat amines , often sold as BAC's.

Starsan is at best a biostat, only is a poor disinfectant, even if it does manage to depress the pH to 3 which very much depends on the alkalinity of the wate- sound familiar. Starssan is a mix of phosphoric acid and DDBSA (dodecyl benzene sulphonic acid). The latter is a surfactant and acts as a wetting agent - it is an anionic surfactant. This mixure is more a cleaner and I would strongly doubt it disinfection efficacy. As to being no rinse then again I would be suspicious- very suspicious in fact. The DDBSA will cling to surfaces and I would not wish to risk it as a no-rinse cleanser.

DDBSA has fallen foul of the REACH regulations( Registration Evaluation Authoriation of Chemicals). It has been a round a long time but has poor- in fact very poor- biodegradability and therefore it, much like creosote, is only to be used by professionals who are supposedly better equipped to use the product. The are many products that REACH has removed from public consumption. I am not fully sure what Chemsan is composed of but most likely the DDBSA has been reformulated with another type of surfactant . Chemsan list the ingedients as phosphoric acid, benzenesulphonic acid and isopropanol. The benzene sulphonic acid description is a little misleading but this it the surfactant, and isopropanol has also been introduced most likley as a co-solvent. Reviews on amazon suggest that keeping the pH below 3 at use rates suggested is a challenge.

Me personally, I steer clear of these no rinse sanitisers. A food grade caustic cleaner followed by sodium percarbonate wins out for me every time. I rinse out the sodium percarbonate solution about 3 times and it is done. You do not need to fill the veseel with rinse water, just enough to dilute the residue.

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Re: Chemsan?

Post by f00b4r » Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:15 am

I would be very wary of endorsing caustic cleaners to people unless they were aware of how to safely use them.

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Re: Chemsan?

Post by McMullan » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:17 pm

Most (>99%) contamination risks are removed by thorough cleaning. So let's obsess more about cleaning :wink: For sanitising purposes stick with the relatively 'safe' products officially sold by home-brew stores. Even if they are 'crap'. They don't need to be that effective, if you've cleaned properly :wink: Read the instructions and heed any warnings. At least there's a business accountable at the end of an audit trail. Don't use 'alternatives' just because professionals use them, unless you too are trained to respect and handle them. Professionals are trained how to use them safety, according to strict regulations. And vessels used by pros are more difficult to maintain. You won't be covered if you have an accident, lose your eyesight or burn your knob off.

That said, mix things up occasionally to minimise selecting for 'resistant bugs'. Using bleach and/or iodine based solutions occasionally is good practice. I wouldn't rely exclusively on StarSan or any of its copies, having observed its effects (lack thereof) under a microscope. Those who claim it works likely bias matters with super cleaning practices. As far as we know it's primarily effective against bacteria, not yeast, which is why it's 'great' for brewers. Unfortunately, it doesn't control wild yeast, which is partly why we might want to mix things up occasionally, if we prefer StarSan.

guypettigrew
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Re: Chemsan?

Post by guypettigrew » Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:58 pm

Right, no laughing now, Mr McM, but I occasionally blast stuff with Starsan at x4 strength. Initially it was used to get rid of the white deposit (?beer stone) on the inside of the stainless fermenter after a brew. Then I wondered if it might be more effective against yeasts than the 'normal' strength stuff.

Any thoughts?

Guy

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Re: Chemsan?

Post by Carnot » Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:50 pm

I do not wish to get into a slanging match but here is pertinent information of the relative safety of Chemsan and a caustic food cleanser such as Amphoclen S, which is used in dairies, breweries and cellars. This is a product that I use. I would stress, as Mr McM does, that nothing betters good manual cleaning. The relevant MSDS's are in the links below:

Starsan - https://chemisphereuk.com/wp-content/up ... -Sheet.pdf

Amphoclen - https://www.ig-groupuk.com/media/merlin ... %20HSC.pdf

The MSDS of Chemsan makes for interesting reading. In terms of hazards Chemsan is certainlly no safer than Amphoclen S, and on balance would appear to be more hazardous, espcially for eye contact, which is hardly surprising with a 50% concentration of phosphoric acid.

The other point to note is that the surfactant used in Chemsan is the sodium salt of DDBSA- the same as Starsan which would confirm that is is a clone of Starsan, though with one addtional notifiable ingredient of isopropanol. Just make sure it does not get in your eyes.

If you are concerend about using a caustic based cleanser the Amphoclen product does not contain any caustic soda as such. The alkaline component is sodium metasilicate.

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