Percarbonate as a Disinfectabt

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PeeBee
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Percarbonate as a Disinfectabt

Post by PeeBee » Sat Mar 02, 2024 10:10 am

Something I've always wanted to prove/disprove: We are all used to Sodium Percarbonate being offered as a safe "cleaner", it comes in many (often outrageously expensive) "propriety" cleaners such as PBW, but how effective was it at killing bugs responsible for beer going off?

Percarbonate's cleaning power comes from its breakdown products ... Hydrogen Peroxide, a very powerful cleaner and disinfectant. Because breakdown products are responsible it has a relatively short period of activity (four hours?). The breakdown products are safe "washing soda" (sodium carbonate) which is very alkaline but mot "caustic" like sodium hydroxide, water, and oxygen. The steps to getting to water include hydrogen peroxide and its breakdown products including hydroxyl radicals.

Read about it here: Hydrogen Peroxide
And (scary stuff!): Hydroxyl Radical

It seems above 3% (w/v) Hydrogen Peroxide solution is needed to be an effective killer of bugs. So how much does Percarbonate produce? (Warning: Spoiler! This is under-whelming.).

Found this: Sodium Percarbonate

So, 1g made up to 100ml creates a 0.325% w/v hydrogen peroxide solution? That's the same as the 10g per litre concentration I use mostly (at 40-60°C). Not really enough? From what I've seen you need 10x that (3%) to be an effective killer. 100g in one litre, that'll strip paint! (Not kidding, it does strip paint! Water based gloss/semi-gloss paints for sure). Maybe 10g/L for general cleaner, 100g/L (but fraction of volume) as a cleaned surface wash as a killer? But do rinse off! You don't need to be as meticulous as with a chlorine cleaner (VWP, bleach, ...), but it won't make beer taste good (using it as "no-rinse" as some suggest is a really dumb move).

Or get a bottle of Hydrogen Peroxide (3% or more) as a "no-rinse" rinse. E.g. 12% Hydrogen Peroxide Food Grade (you can dilute it). This might make more sense.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Percarbonate as a Disinfectant

Post by PeeBee » Sat Mar 02, 2024 11:04 am

Blimey, the things these little write-ups can lead you to ...

Harris Suresan

They don't seem too worried about the solution being <3% concentration!



There are also some reports that Hydrogen Peroxide can be difficult to get hold of because of lunatics using it to make explosives. I have some interest in this because:

1: I am a lunatic! (The real-deal after a bit of a bang on the head!).
2: I used to work with high explosives (for over ten years).

And I can say: Loonie or not, I find the explosives they make academically interesting (endothermic?), but I also realise you need a complete lack of self-preservation to mess with them things ... they'll go bang if you say "boo!" to them! (And they may not wait for anyone to say "boo"!).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Percarbonate as a Disinfectabt

Post by PeeBee » Sat Mar 02, 2024 11:10 am

Ooof!

That link to buy H2O2 ... the transport cost is more than the product!
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Percarbonate as a Disinfectabt

Post by Trefoyl » Sat Mar 02, 2024 11:32 pm

I don’t use cleaners to disinfect. I use PBW followed with Starsan. For yeast propagation I use iodophor.
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Re: Percarbonate as a Disinfectabt

Post by MashBag » Sun Mar 03, 2024 10:35 am

Alcohol kills bugs. You have never seen a bottle of gin go off👍🏻

Costs very little to ship 😁 and doesn't respond to "boo" or even stronger language (I have tested this thoroughly)

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Re: Percarbonate as a Disinfectant

Post by PeeBee » Sun Mar 03, 2024 10:52 am

Trefoyl wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2024 11:32 pm
I don’t use cleaners to disinfect. I use PBW followed with Starsan. For yeast propagation I use iodophor.
That more or less backs up my query!

PBW is mainly Percarbonate, and so is Suresan! PBW is just a very expensive way of purchasing Percarbonate (you need to be sold on the propriety extras they add). Both rely on Hydrogen Peroxide to do their job: PBW also has a "detergent" (sodium metasilicate) and is sold as a cleaner, using only Percarbonate relies only on Sodium Carbonate (washing-soda; from Percarbonate's breakdown) to assist cleaning, Suresan is almost the same stuff (mainly Percarbonate), is sold as a sanitiser but doesn't reach anywhere near the 3% H2O2 concentration suggested for sanitising in many articles I've read. Starsan is different in that it relies on a "surfactant" to do the sanitising, a less usual surfactant in that it operates in acid environments, and is also the target of some distracting comments (i.e. does it actually work?). I use Starsan BTW.

Iodophor slightly worries me, because of the lingering smell, even at the very dilute usage. I do use IO-Star too (Iodophor based).

So, I've been wondering at the effectiveness of 1% w/v Percarbonate as a cleaner and sanitiser, or 1% for cleaning and 10% for sanitising (but 10% is pretty aggressive!) or using 1% Percarbonate for cleaning and have some 3%+ H2O2 for sanitising (but how long can we still get H2O2 for?).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Percarbonate as a Disinfectabt

Post by PeeBee » Sun Mar 03, 2024 11:06 am

MashBag wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 10:35 am
Alcohol kills bugs. You have never seen a bottle of gin go off👍🏻

Costs very little to ship 😁 and doesn't respond to "boo" or even stronger language (I have tested this thoroughly)
Yeap! Got me eye on Isopropyl Alcohol (not sure if it's safe as a no-rinse spray, should be?) Definitely not wasting Gin! And that virus scare taught us; 40% alcohol isn't enough, 70% might be necessary.

Isopropyl Alcohol is cheaper overall than H2O2.

Weird why H2O2 has never seemed to get much support in the HB world?
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Percarbonate as a Disinfectabt

Post by Eric » Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:39 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 11:06 am
Weird why H2O2 has never seemed to get much support in the HB world?
Several of us used peracetic acid, apparently hydrogen peroxide and acetic acid, until it became difficult to obtain in quantities small enough for homebrewers.
When still at school and before brewing beer, I owned a Winchester of hydrogen peroxide. Used it for cleaning electrical and optical components.
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Re: Percarbonate as a Disinfectabt

Post by MashBag » Tue Mar 05, 2024 11:00 am

PeeBee wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 11:06 am
[
Yeap! Got me eye on Isopropyl Alcohol (not sure if it's safe as a no-rinse spray, should be?) Definitely not wasting Gin! And that virus scare taught us; 40% alcohol isn't enough, 70% might be necessary.

Isopropyl Alcohol is cheaper overall than H2O2.

Weird why H2O2 has never seemed to get much support in the HB world?
40% works just fine. I have being doing such for years, ever since I leaned how vodka plants wash bottles.

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Re: Percarbonate as a Disinfectant

Post by PeeBee » Sun Mar 10, 2024 10:45 am

MashBag wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2024 11:00 am
40% works just fine. I have being doing such for years, ever since I leaned how vodka plants wash bottles.
I've come across another article I wrote elsewhere:
I dug up that article:
one.jpg
one.jpg (91.71 KiB) Viewed 678 times
It was from:

https://mycoscience.com/sterilization-v ... infection/
I usually prefer something more "academic" and "local". Seems I was having a wider search. The above table missed out the iodine stuff:
two.jpg
two.jpg (14.29 KiB) Viewed 678 times

Bleach (hypochlorite) doesn't come over as great: "Best for floor cleaning"! But I am troubled by these non-academic articles ... what they say is bad is what they don't sell or make money from!
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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PeeBee
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Re: Percarbonate as a Disinfectant

Post by PeeBee » Sun Mar 10, 2024 11:04 am

... I've heard of a commercial surface disinfectant containing 1.4% hydrogen peroxide (30-60 second contact time), and Harris Suresan, which is Sodium Percarbonate, which could only come up with a tenth of that (but they do say 15 minute contact time).

Alcohol I've seen down as 64-73% for "optimum" effectiveness. But I have, for a lifetime, considered 40% as effective.

Why can't I find "definitive" guidance on this?
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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