A film of a film

[maxashton]

Definitely sounds like mother of vinegar, that one. Wild yeasts cause their own brand of sour flavour, but not jelly top.

Scrap your fermenter.

Best way to mitigate this sort of issue in future is to use stainless or glass FV. Expensive, but sadly the fact. If you want to continue using plastic FVs, make sure you use something non-scratch to clean with, like a Microfibre cloth, and not a non-scratch sponge. Soak clean really heavy scum whenever you can.

Edit: What are you using to disinfect?

[beery]

Hi Totem,

Yes i do clean the tin opener and the tinnies.They will at least get an hour long soak in a weak thin bleach solution, just pryor to use.

With all your kit being left out for a year in a damp lean-to, i personally would not worry even if it had signs of damp mold on it.I would just give it all a good clean using soda crystals and hot water.Then make up a sterilizing solution and wash/soak for 20 mins or use a weak solution and go for the 24 hour soak, or both just to make sure. Your aqua heater should be fine,but do not leave that in contact with bleach for more than 20 mins.Rinse well.

My first 2 heaters lasted more than 20 months submerged in the FV with no trouble.It was after a 2 month summer break and then going back to brewing where my probs started.

[beery]

Thankyou maxashton,

This is definitely a jelly on top. An aerobic, so it needs oxygen to survive.An Acetobacter.Likes ethanol and turns it into acetic acid.

So yes, i am going with the mother of vinegar theory.Now, Acetobacter is new for me.I have read about Acetobacter Pasteurianus being found in the enviroment containing fruits and veg.There is or was fruit and veg stored in my brew room,with bananas going brown.If i see food which looks like its going in the bin i will neck it.So i can remember a few times eating them brown bananas while i am making up a brew. But i do not know if Acetobacter Pasteurianus is mother of vinegar or in other words is it the type of Acetobacter that keeps drinking all my ethanol

2 new 6 gallon FVs will be ordered today.I have never checked out glass or s/s FVs.But i am passionate about this form of rehydration.I love it Drinking tap water sucks and plus i.m.o. its not water, its a water based product with a truckload of chems in it. I will look into glass and s/s FVs as to me they will be an investment.

My 2 existing FVs (bog standard Youngs 5 gallon type,now 27 months old,bought new) have never been touched/cleaned by anything other than a J cloth. The only thing that may have caused micro scratching is the plastic paddle used to mix in the goo and to aerate the wort.Trub scum gets cleaned using 1 dessert spoon of soda crystals into the FV with some boiling water,and then using J cloth and elbow grease.No abrasives

I used to disinfect using thin bleach. For the last brew i used demestos 24 hour gel.I spent a day oxycleaning and blitz disinfecting everything using a solution containing 300mls of demestos in 6 litres of cold water.I then repeated again the next day using 150mls of demestos in 6 litres.Rinse, repeat again using 2 t spoons of VWP in 4 litres of warm water.Then, taking good care and attention made up 2 brews ,put the lids on tight,left for 10 days,no peeking and it lived

[maxashton]

Couple of problems, there, mate!

First, Domestos 24, while no doubt an effective bleach / disinfectant, has cling agents in it (Hence the 24). These make it inherently hard to rinse!

If you've got scratches on your FV, it's entirely possible nothing short of exposure to a radiation source will disinfect. Those tend to be out of the scope of mugs like us, so!

Glass is going to be a LOT cheaper than stainless, syrrah.

[beery]

Hi maxashton,

Using demestos 24hr gel was a first and last for me,especially seeing as it states on the back <5% bleach.I now know that < = less than As a customer i find this term < very useful.That and the perfume and clinging agents is enough to make me go back to basic thin bleach that is probably 1.1% bleach.

So to be honest with you maxashton, i have never inspected my FVs for scratching, presuming as long as i never use any abrasive cloth to clean,that they would be scratch free.So now you got me thinking.

I am going to drive to the brewroom and check FVs for scratching right this moment.

[beery]

Bin there,come back,

The inside of the FVs are as scratch free,clean and shiny as the day i bought them 2 years ago. But the lids have visible scratch lines on both of them. Not deep enough that your fingernail can feel them, but the lids are made of a softer, more flexible plastic, and thus will harbour bugs more.

Maybe this is could be the source of the problem, wort ferments, rises, hits the lid, drops down onto beer, film grows. And this thing needs oxygen.

I remember a few brews back, dropping the lid into the brew after taking a hydro reading. 2 or 3 days later, i opened the FV, and saw the first signs of the film growing in the same shape and place the lid had touched.

[maxashton]

That's definitely concieveable. Did your deep-clean include the lids?

[beery]

Yes, they have had a lot of blitzing over the last few months, some being 24hr soaks in the FV with 1.5 lts of thin bleach.

[Totem]

Good advice beery. Maybe the mother of vinegar is the 0.1% of bacteria that demestos cant kill why don;t you try iodophor or star-san (cant remember the name) its worth a try if the demestos doesn't seem to be cutting it?

[maxashton]

As to the 1.5 ltrs of bleach, too much of a good thing can be a problem with bleach, iirc. Stick to
Try 1-2 heaped tablespoons of VWP or Brupaks Bruclene instead. Jolly good stuff for cleaning stubborn crap, powdered bleach.

But I still recommend ditching your FV! My only complaint with glass carboys is the simple fact that they have the bung necks. I don't much mind using blowoff tubes, so foaming up doesn't bother me, it just makes it such a pain if you want to do a kit!

[beery]

Just in case anyone reads this thread and thinks Doom and Gloom, that is not the case.

Out of the half dozen or so brews i have made since october when this began, i have only had to throw 1 batch, and that was down to snow over the xmas period.I could not get to the brewroom and the brew got left in the FVs for about 14 days,(the lid did not come off in that 14 days). There was a thick film (plastic bag looking) and was a right off.It stank.10 gallons down the drain.

All other brews have been fine with absolutely no taste off vinegar in them.It just means stuck/slow ferments are a no-no, and obviously you cannot keep taking the lid of the FV and releasing the CO2 protective jacket, as this will speed up the growth of film.

I now think that wild yeasts are out of the question, especially seeing as we have had one of the coldest winters in 20 years.As far as i understand, wild yeasts are a summer thing like when fruit on trees are rotting with brown patches on them.

This all points back to insufficient disinfecting, i.e. the FVs or heaters or equipment are harbouring the bug. Only new equipment will tell.

So today i am ordering 2 * 6 gallon FVs, 2 * taps, star-san and some airlocks.I will also search the town for some stacking trays, fill them with water and place the FVs in them with existing aqua heaters in the stacking trays, not in the FVs. No more heaters in the FVs, for now anyways.

I will report back in about 20 days with news of either success or more film. Fingers crossed.

Thankyou to all those who replyed. Your help with this problem is greatly appreciated

[maxashton]

No worries! You'll love star-san. It foams up, but the foam sanitizes too, so don't fear the foam! You can even leave some foam in the bottom of your FV if you're a lazy bugger like me, it breaks down into mostly water!

[beery]

Thanks maxashton, all your help has been greatly appreciated.

I have gone for the 16oz star-san, better value plus after what i have been through, i think it is going to help in many ways, like speed up bottling preperation and also give a good barrier to infection from disinfecting rinse time, to snapping the lids on FV, finished making up the brew time.

This whole experience has been both weird and frustrating, but in no way disheartened. It has been a learning curve. Hell i never even new this part of the forum existed (cleaning and sterilization).I would just browse the kit brewing section for tips and ideas.

Good luck with the mead and the vikings mate

[beery]

Hi all,

i said i would report back with news of the acetobacter problem and its not good.

On thursday 4/3/10 i put on a wherry using new FV, tap and even a new paddle to stir and aerate.I have fitted a blow off tube using some 3/8" tubing.
Pitched rehydrated yeast at 14:30.Left lid sealed until 10:00am on friday, when vigorous fermentation had started, then cracked open lid, just a few inches,
as small diameter tubing would never take much pressure. Then on saturday, resealed lid, leaving blow off tube to do its job. I have tried my best to minimise air contact.

I have just checked the beer and taken a hydro reading. This is the first time i have opened the lid since pitching yeast, stirring it in and taking OG reading,
so we are talking 6 days to the hour. What is on the surface of the beer is pretty much the same as in the video in OP, but is a little more patchy, as in not
wholely uniform across the surface..........yet.

If you was to make a cup of tea, you know, throw a tea bag in a mug , pour boiling water over it (no milk), and then walk outside your backdoor into the daylight, you will see a patchy "scum" on the surface. Thats about the best way i can describe what i am seeing on my beer. Is that normal fermentation? I have to ask because its been so long now living with this thing that i cannot remember. I licked the scum off the hydro (lives in a trial jar filled with VWP) and it tastes very bitter. Stays in the mouth for about 5 mins after.

This time i washed the new FV, tap, paddle and all equipment in an oxy cleaner, then a thin bleach, then VWP and then sprayed on some newly acquired star-san, 3.6ml in 2 litres of RO water from the local aqua fish shop, but on checking it the next day i saw that it was cloudy, so therefore no good. Some
tesco ashbeck spring water at 36p 2 litres sorted that.

So the score is now i have 4 new FVs, about 15-20 kits waiting to be brewed, truckloads of malts, hops, sugars, yeasts. Just about everything i need for a year of happy brewing, apart from i feel like i am in a bit of a limbo as to how to proceed. I also have 2 coopers lager kits plus saflager yeasts, but with their slow
fermentation, its basically out of the question. I reckon i have about 9-10 days (maybe longer) in the FV before the film will grow to a point that it can shag the beer, although, blitz sterilization does delay the growth of this thing.

So surely now this must be, or maybe is, an airborne thing, as it must be getting in when i am aerating the wort.

Either way i am pretty much clueless now as to whats going on. I did not wash/disinfect the brewroom walls and ceiling, just the floor, but thats up next.

I know this is difficult to help a person with this sort of problem----hence my reluctance to post on here when this first started back in october. But if anyone has got any ideas i would appreciate your help.

[Trunky]