A film of a film

[beery]

Hi everyone,

Since october, squatters keep taking up residence in my FVs.

After about 6 days an opaque jelly type film will start to grow on the surface of my brew (kits, wherry and coopers stout).

If i leave the brew to ferment for say 14 days due to stuck fermentation or being too busy to bottle, it will grow to resemble a clear piece of plastic bag/jelly pancake about 3 mil thick, break up and drop down if i try and spoon it out. If i put a hydrometer in to take a reading it will cling to it and tastes very bitter/acidic, and if left exposed to the air for an hour or so will stink of vinegar.

I have made a short video of this (bit blurry) and am going to try and make a link to photobucket, but this a first for me and i am not sure if its going work, so here goes.

A still photo will not show it, but you should be able to see the "effect" of the film as i drag the hydrometer through the surface of the brew.Notice the surface moving away before the hydrometer and being dragged behind it.

http://s1013.photobucket.com/albums/af2 ... AG0001.flv

I would greatly appreciate any advise on this problem.

[pokerswazi]

eish, bad luck dude. sadly I have no idea what it is or how to help. I hope you figure it out...

[beery]

thanks Pokerswazi,

I am a bit confused as to a solution,i am now beginning to suspect a "wild yeast" as i dont think i can up the sterilization any more.
Currently trying to word some more info.

BTW, top reply dude on the skunking in the kit section.

[wobbly_bob]

Hello

OOo this is bad news for your beer -- the scum on the top actually has a name -- it is called the "mother" of vinager. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_of_vinegar

If you were making cider vinager the "mother" would be a highly prized thing and you would carfully nurture it as it rose and fell through your brew. I would keep your infected brew away from any others you have on the go, and mega mega sterelize your bucket after you have finished.

[beery]

Nice one Wobbly_Bob,

This is most definitely a "mother".

If Sarsons is interested , i could guarantee an infinite supply of mother.

I brew using 2 FVs at a time. I cannot stop this infecting both brews.I cannot brew a beer without mother getting in both FVs.

I have been upping and upping the concentration of bleach since this started, going from the few glugs of thin bleach in about 4 litres of water method to the last brew where i went for an all out total blitz:
cleaned everything in wizz oxy ultra,rinse
into 1 FV i put 6 litres of cold tap water,then added
300mls of demestos
dash of washing up liquid
3 tablespoons of distilled vinegar(to lower ph---but i now understand this is futile due to the high ph of my tap water)
then spent 20 mins washing/soaking everything
rinse and repeat using VWP

Yet it still lives.This is why i now suspect "wild yeasts".I know nothing about these wild yeasts,and like any good hunter,you need to know your prey in order to be able to stalk it.

I know i am clutching at straws here but is there any chance these wild yeast spores could be coming from a possible wet rot in the cieling joists above me.In other words are they the same family of bugs.

The room i brew in is a single skin brick extension with a flat roof that did leak back in oct/nov when all this started.The floor and walls are fully tiled with a varnished wooden ceiling.It is very clean with no visible damp.

[wobbly_bob]

Hi

I would use citric acid instead of vinager to lower water ph -- I wouldnt trust even distilled vinager -- its just asking for trouble putting the bye products of your worst enemy anywhere near your fermentation vessel --- I am pretty new to homebrewing so maybe some more experienced brewers on here can see in what way these nasties are hijacking your brews.

[beery]

Thanks wobbly_bob,

But the addition of vinegar was a new one.I went out ,paid £1 a pint for it,used it ,then that evening read in this forum that due to high Ph of my tap water(kent), that it is pointless.But more to the point at that level of bleach concentration it should not be needed.

I will look into the citric acid route thanks.Is citric acid vit C,sold in chemists in a powder form?

Also what is pellice?

[beery]

Reading the link to Wikipedia-Acetobacter,it says,"The growth of Acetobacter in wine can be suppressed through effective sanitaion,by complete exclusion of air from wine in storage"

So to me, this is pointing back to insufficient disinfection.

So when i "assume" i am cleaning/dissinfecting "everything", there could be something i am overlooking.

I am a believer in the saying "assumption is the mother of all ****-ups.

The only thing i can think of that did not go into that blitz solution apart from myself was the rubber gloves that i was wearing.In other words could the source of the infection possibly come from the inside of sweaty marigolds.

I have already replaced my 2 aqua heaters,believing they were the source of the infection.Now i am looking at replacing my 2 FVs,but i have little faith this is going to work.

Heres a picture of my brewing room http://s1013.photobucket.com/albums/af2 ... als004.jpg

[prolix]

I have had to ditch a fair few fermenters due it infection, that sanitisation could not remove. they make great potato buckets by the way.

Any way, get some citric acid, ebay sells it for bath bombs quite cheaply, and use a green scrubby and clean the inside of the fermenters, mine had a powdery chalk like residue that could not be shifted elsewise. look for scratches as these harbour nasties that clean generally misses, if scratched ditch them.

Next clean the immersion heaters you are using it could be the source of your infection passing it on from one brew to the next, the dial pit is impossible to clean I set mine to max and filled the hole then used an TC10 to control the temp.

You have to sterilize everything that you can, if you can get it into boiling water and leave it a while do so, the rest, everything, needs sanitizing including sides tiled walls and that wooden ceiling, needs washing down with bleach then rinsing off.

I repainted the garage in an attempt to get rid of infection as I can now wipe down the brick work and ditched the fermenters.

Not had an infection since

[beery]

Thanks prolix,

I would never have believed before this that a beer infection could be so difficult to get rid of.I have nicknamed these bugs "The Immortals" after the amount of cleaning and sterilizing i have done.Tis a good job i wear overalls when i make a brew,as went to put them on about a month back i noticed they a covered in bleach stains from the chest down.

I have now decided to replace all equipment.But first i may try an experiment to try to find out --- a, is it the equipment? or b, is it the enviroment? (brew room).
If i take 1 FV and equipment to another house and brew another wherry (this bug seems to like wherry a lot more than coopers stout).So if it infects again,then i am 90% sure its the equipment.If no infection then it points to brew room and wild yeasts.

Prolix i know exactly what your on about with the dial pit on the aqua heaters,they fill up with sediment and are a p.i.t.a. to clean.I used to rinse and shake them to get sediment out.When this infection started i began shaking them more vigorously and broke the filaments in one.So i decided to disect it.They are basically a large glass test tube with a rubber bung in the top.The rubber bung had failed probably from bleach errosion.I could clearly see a line of dried dark brown wort running down the inside of the tube .It stank of vinegar.So i replaced the heaters, started stepping up the concentration of bleach, but no luck

I do not know of TC-10 temp regulator but i will check this out.

I may swap over to the place FVs in another vessal of water method (a £4 floppy builders bucket) and eliminate the need to sterilize the heaters.

I will also spend a day washing/bleaching down the brew room. I am going to pull out all them appliances and check for spillages maybe gone down the back of worktop,coopers stout vigerous fermentation overflows.

[wobbly_bob]

Hi Beery

I used to use one of those immesion heater things and I found them to much hassle -- the problem I found with them is that you have to run the wire under the lip of the seal of your fv so that it gives another entry point for nasties -- and also if there are any nasties growing on the heater then this is the perfect "trojan horse" for them to gain entry .

I am no expert -- but I would just dump that heater -- The more variables and things you dunk in your beer the more things can go wrong -- I would just just concentrate on getting your brew in a sterile FV and sticking the lid on and leaving it -- i feel you are trying too hard and leaving too many doors open. If you really need to heat your beer because its not at room temp I think then maybe a "brew belt" heater that wraps around your FV would be a much more hygeinic option .... GL

[beery]

Hi wobbly_bob,

Sound advise all the way---thankyou. I like the post on "mother of vinegar" I have seen this stuff grow and it does looks like a jelly,kinda like the picture of the stuff in the bowl.

Yes, i am going to change the way i brew.No more heater in FV.I will have to go down the airlock route.

I have always had the impression that heat belts can be a p.i.t.a. in that you have keep sliding them up and down on the FV?, read that somewhere but i have no experience of using one.But now i have to keep an open mind and checkout all alternatives. Thanks

[Brotherton Lad]

I use a brew belt (about £19). It's not especially fussy to use. Of course there is no proper temperature control, it's either on or off, but you can adjust the temperature of the ferment by moving the belt higher up for a cooler ferment and lower down for warmer. I cover the FV with a cot blanket and lay a thermometer on the lid of the FV under the blanket. To start off I put the brew belt round the middle of the FV, let it settle down, check the thermometer and adjust the belt accordingly. That's it. Then I leave the FV undisturbed and switch the belt off when the main ferment is over.
The more often you open the FV for a peek or to take a hydrometer reading or to stick an immersion heater in, the greater the chance of infection. I ruined a brew recently by dropping the hydrometer in the FV after sanitising it, rinsing it and then absent-mindedly drying it with the tea-towel.
So now, I put the lid on and leave it to ferment, only taking a reading when I think it's stopped and then by running the brew into a trial jar, which I then drink or use in cooking. That way the only thing that goes into the FV is the wort and the pitched yeast.

[Totem]

Do you clean you tin opener? Ive not brewed in about a year - had all my stuff in a damp lean-to. I cleaned everything with vwp, then iodophor evening cleaning the tin opener and the tins from the wherry also. Im using a new aqua heater too so hopefully i wont get an infection from that.

[beery]

Thanks Brotherton Lad,

The advise on using a brewbelt is much appreciated,but as you have just pointed out,there is no proper temperature control.This is no good for me as i cannot keep checking temps.I do not brew where i live.Where i live is too small and plus me and the missus replicated ourselves twice a few years back,and i am fairly sure i would come home one day to find said replicants bathing their teddys in in my brew

After reading through my posts, i think its best i clarify some points.I have been kit brewing for about 27 months.Iam not the type to keep opening the FVs and farting about with the brew checking hydro/temp readings.Ispend a long time on brew day,mostly preperation, i.e. cleaning and sterilizing.I blitz everything that i will either touch or use to make the brews.But saying that there could always be something that i am overlooking.

Pants, i have to go out for a while, back soon to finish the clarifying