Bad Beer Help!!!

[Deller12]

Chaps,

I good friend of mine is going through a bad patch with his all grain brews. The last 5 have tasted bad like vinegar I have put this down to bad sanitation. We both brew using the same ingredients and water the only real difference is that I pump my hot wort through a plate chiller into my fermenter and he uses an emersion chillier. He is very anal about the way he cleans his equipment but the brews are still turning out bad. It’s getting to the stage where he wants to quit as it’s that bad. As the beer is boiled I assume at the point of flame out it must be ok? Can any of you give any advice on this as I would like to help solve the problem with him once and for all? After all it’s not so much the cost that’s getting him down it’s the time to brew each batch.

The only other thing is he is using Gervens yeast and Im using S04


You’re thought please

Lee

[pas8280]

My best guess is an infection in the fermenter as you say the beer should be fine up to and after the boil, so it must be post boil i would remove the taps on the fermenter and do the full belt and braces job on them.
If there are no taps i would suggest maybe scratches in the FV and these may be harbouring the nasties so new FV would be in order.
Paul

[trucker5774]

My best guess is an infection in the fermenter as you say the beer should be fine up to and after the boil, so it must be post boil i would remove the taps on the fermenter and do the full belt and braces job on them.
If there are no taps i would suggest maybe scratches in the FV and these may be harbouring the nasties so new FV would be in order.
Paul

As pas says above............. You could try and swap fermenters/barrel/bottles with him and see what happens

[greenxpaddy]

I don't take any chances with the immersion chiller. I put it into position about ten minutes before the end of the boil to get right up to temperature. There will be condensation form on the chiller otherwise with possibly accompanying airborne attackers. Still, I am not sure whether that could be it. Does he leave the wort overnight uncovered before sending to FV? Does he clean his chiller with a sanitiser or simply soap and water.Some of them are tightly coiled and can be hard to clean from all angles. Dried on gunk can be stubborn to remove.

If its vinegar taste is he opening up his FV to check on things too often - especially in the early days when the yeast hasn't multiplied? More chance of things dropping by - especially if its a dusty environment.

[Deller12]

Hi All,

He has had this issue with a number of fermenting bins he has removed the taps and cleaned them well. I know he puts the chiller in 20 mins before the end of the boil but he does not sanitize it maybe this could be the problem? He ferments in a temp controlled fridge but has had the same problem with out using the fridge.


Lee

[trucker5774]

Sounds to me like he's missing something. Stirring with something which has missed the sanitising because it was intended for pre boil? Have you tasted his beer. Could it just be a different yeast character, something in his malt if it's the same sack been lying around for a while? Water treatment?

[GrowlingDogBeer]

Has it really tasted of vinegar, which would suggest an infection, or does it taste chemically.

If he is anal about cleaning, is he rinsing everything off properly or leaving everything smelling of bleach.

[Deller12]

Hi,

Yes i have tasted it its very sour like vinegar. Its not the dreaded TCP taste we had that years ago and sorted that problem. Perhaps he needs a closer look at the wort chiller to see if that may be the problem. This is the reason why i use a march 809 and pump through a plate chiller as i know it has to be clean as i circulate 20 mins before my boil ends and never have a problem.

[staplefordbill]

I'd be surprised if it's the immersion chiller - Ive never sanitised mine. I just put it into the boil 20 minutes before the end. If there are any bits of hops stuck on I'll wipe them off but that's about it.

[Deller12]

Its a mystery he has throw away 240 pints i going to have watch him do a whole brew i think

[gregorach]

Is the problem evident in the fermentor at the end of fermentation, or does it take time to develop? And is he bottling or barrelling?

[Deller12]

Hi,

Sorry been away on holiday.

Just to confirm the problem is from the fermenter but he does barrel.

Lee

[floydmeddler]

Sounds like acetobacter. My friends and I lost around 250L to the b@stard. I documented it here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=40677. I managed to get rid of it. Here's what I suggest he does:

Ensure that the fermenters are air tight at all times. This is a good fermenter to use:



Acetobacter can only thrive if there is oxygen available. It will go dormant in a c02 atmosphere but will still be there waiting for oxygen. Acetobacter will die in temps past 60c so he needs to blitz everything with 60c+ water. My primary fermenter had 3 L of 100c water swirled around for around 20 mins - no sanitiser as I forgot. Before transferring the beer to secondary (Better Bottle), my autosyphon had 70c water passed through it then star san. Secondary fermenter had 70c water swirled around for 20 mins then star san, bottles were blitzed in the oven at 140c for 1 hr and again, autosyphon and bottling stick had 70c water passed through it then star san. The brew that I did this with is the first to have no acetobacter since March... well, actually my Belgians were OK but that's because the high strength alcohol killed of the acetobacter

Tell him that EVERYTHING that comes into contact with the beer needs blitzed with 60c+ water - 100c if the vessel can stand it. He should use sanitiser too.

Hope this helps. I am confident that this will do the trick! Keep us posted.

[Deller12]

Update!!!!!

He has just had 2 beers finish fermenting 1 is good the other is tastes like vinegar. There were 2 differences as below

Dark beer fermented in a cupboard is ok

Timothy Taylor fermented in his temperature controlled fridge tastes like vinegar

Both brew used Gervins yeast

Can the acetobacter been seen with the naked eye or is it invisible?

I thought perhaps the spores\ acetobacter could be lerking in the seal around the top of the lid so was going to sugest he steams clean the lid ?

Lee

[gregorach]

Can the acetobacter been seen with the naked eye or is it invisible?

I thought perhaps the spores\ acetobacter could be lerking in the seal around the top of the lid so was going to sugest he steams clean the lid ?

A bad infection can produce a visible film of bacteria on the surface of the beer, but don't assume it's not just because you can't see it.

Sanitise everything, including the inside of the fridge.