Oxi Powder with Percetic Acid

[mikes]

Hello all, I may as well make my first post a big one!

I was just picking up some oxi cleaner from my local Poundland (Wizz oxi powder fabric stain remover, pry, not screw lid to be precise and un-fragranced) and I noticed something interesting on the label - "100g contains 0.66g Peracetic Acid from 50g Sodium Percarbonate & 1.0g TAED" and thought "Excellent, potentially a cleaner AND sanitiser!?"

Chemically it contains Sodium Percarbonate & TAED (TetraAcetylEthyleneDiamine) an activator which reacts with the hydrogen peroxide released by the sodium percarbonate when mixed with water to produce peracetic acid. The reaction also creates DAED (DiAcetylEthyleneDiamine) which I haven't found a huge amount on information on other than seemingly low toxicity...

Looking at sanitisation concentrations of peracetic acid, I have found references to a wide range of no-rinse concentrations from 80 - 1000 ppm. Across home brewing forums, many people seem to be mixing 5% peracetic acid at a ratio of 20ml to 1000ml water which gives 1000 ppm - a 0.1% solution. Commercial wine and brewing data sheets seem to suggest between 80 and 200 ppm for a no rinse solution, so I am aiming for 200 ppm for now to use as a no-rinse formula to shake around my FV, unless stronger would be recommended? I would pre-clean the vessel prior to using this sanitising rinse.

Back to the oxi powder, from the label it has 0.66g peracetic acid per 100g (thus a 0.66% solution) so 1g would contain 0.0066g of peracetic acid. For a 200 ppm concentration, I would need 0.2g of peracetic acid per litre of water, so would need 30g of oxi powder.

So what I am wondering are people's thoughts on this?

Would this work? Do people think the ppm should be higher?

Would this concentration of Sodium Percarbonate mean it would leave a residue, so not no-rinse?

Any further info on TAED?

Many thanks,

Mike

[Pinto]

I came across the same thing when I looked into the Vanish "Extra Hygiene" - basically the same stuff. Issue with the vanish is they saw fit to add "perfume" of an unknown type to it which runs a serious risk of taint.

If this poundland stuff is unperfumed then it looks very promising as a sanitiser; given the chemistry, I'd not use it for a "no rinse" scenario.... but honestly, how hard is it to rinse something with water ?

Could make a very nice alternative (and much, much cheaper) to PBW

Seems TAED is considered virtually harmless....

http://www.heraproject.com/files/2-F-04 ... b%20wd.pdf

[mikes]

Thanks for the feedback Pinto, I had noticed your posts about Vanish "Extra Hygiene" - seems it has 3.07g Peracetic Acid (from 40g Sodium Percarbonate & 4.6g TAED) so actually a stronger concentration, but I see as well as Perfume it also has Anionic Surfactants, Non-Ionic Surfactants, Enzymes (Protease, Mannanase, Amylase) so not so great - but have you successfully used it as a sanitiser (rinsing obviously) ?

[Pinto]

I did use it successfully, but in a role as a pre-rinse sanitising cleaner for heavily soiled bottles, FVs and other brewerania and it performed its task very well. The Surfactants are there as detergents to break down oils and the enzymes are there to break down organic matter - I think that its aimed at, shall we say, soiled laundry tasks

Just the perfume put me off.

I think I'll be taking a peek at the poundland stuff now tho.

[mikes]

Did I say I hate rinsing? Just mainly due to limited space / small sink. Been using VWP, but the full fill, long contact time and multiple rinses afterwards are a pest.

I am specifically looking for a final sanitiser, preferably no-rinse nor going to accidentally kill me, but if one rinse was sufficient that would be fine. I tried using some of this oxi solution at 200ppm peracetic acid level (30g to a litre of water) to rinse around a FV to make a batch of TC - I then drained and forgot to rinse... Fermenting away now, so if there was any residue, it doesn't seem to have hampered that aspect at least...

I might make up solution at 500ppm (75g) next time to sanitise then rinse and see how it goes.

I have emailed Wizz for a datasheet on this formulation as the one on their website is just sodium percarbonate.

Just to note - my Poundland had two varieties that looked the same from the front, but in different shaped containers - the one with the mention of TAED and peracetic acid was this shape http://img.tesco.com/Groceries/pi/508%5 ... 25x225.jpg but with a pink design of label

[jmc]

Poundland stuff sounds very promising so thanks for the heads up
However as I'm not 100% sure of all contents, my gut reaction is to use this to clean then a rinse or 2, then a final spray with star san as a final no-rinse sanitiser

[alix101]

Potentially you could have stumbled across the best thrifty brewing find ever.... I'm interested to see what the response would be from the manufacture.

[Andy]

Loads of this stuff in my local Poundland.

[barneey]

Just been in £land and bought a couple of containers to trial.

Cheers

[FUBAR]

Just be sure to check that its not perfumed I have had one from poundland that was, I always make a point of taking the lid off in the shop now and have a sniff to check

[barneey]

Just done a sniff test and it is perfumed although doesn't say so on the box.

Oh well lesson learnt + I can still use it with the washing anyway.

[Andy]

Yup, perfumed here too! This stuff had a pink label on it whereas the previous (unscented) stuff (same manufacturer, also from Poundland) had a blue label, I guess that's the indicator.

Edit: Colour of the label doesn't seem to indicate scented/unscented.

[FUBAR]

I just hope the next batch poundland buy is the old original one.

[mikes]

Hmm maybe I have a terrible sense of smell! I only got a mild chemical smell from it - just to check barnee and Andy - was it a tub with a pry lid, not a screw lid?

Might get someone else to give it mine a sniff...

Cheers!

[Andy]

Mine was a tab release lid. Also, the colour of the label doesn't seem to correlate to scented/unscented (as I mistakenly mentioned above).

So basically, sniff before you buy