Help, 3 brews failed

[Happy brewer]

Hello all,
I am relativley new to homebrewing, so far i have successful made, a woodfordes headcraker, wilko pilsner, woodfordes Nelsons revenge.

But had a faliure on making a woodfordes admiral;s reserve, Brewferm Abdij, and now possibly a kilner bitter.

I clean out both of my FV using fairy washing liquid, rinse 5 times.

Then i fil it with around 24 litres of hot water at around 70c, and put in 4 teaspoons of VWP cleaner, and leave it for an hour, then rinse this 5 times with cold water, after having transfered this water to the other bucket.

Then i refill the bucket with cold water and put in 2 ounces of star san, bearhug and shake the life out of it, until the foam starts to come out of the hole in the lid.

I leave this for another 30 min, and transfer this water into the other bucket.

while this is happening i put all the stuff i will be using into the second bucket with the vwp in.
once this has sat for 1 hour, i rinse everything in the second bucket, 5 times, and transfer the star san mix to this bucket with everything in.

The 1st bucket which is now clean and sterralised with star san, i fill with 23 litres of cold tap water, and throw in a crushed campden tablet.

By the times the second FV with all the equipment is is done, the campden tablet has been at work for 30 min,
I then pull out 3 litres of the cold water and boil it to mix the malt in the tins.
I always pitch the yeast at 23c, take the SG, pop in the emersion heater and airlock, and place it into a home made box that is lined with radiator reflector foil.
The temperature stays at a near constant 22-23c.
The admirals reserve smelled like vinegar, as this was done before i built the box or had the emmersion heater, the adbij was the same.
And now the kilner i am 8 days into smells a little sour, it had a SG of 1.035, and is supposed to go down to 1.008 or less in 8 days, it stuck at 1.025 on th 7th and 8th day, today i checked and it was down to 1.020, but still smells a little sour, to tatse it has a slight bitter tatste, but does not taste to sour.
What i would like to know, is do i need a new FV bucket(s) or am i doing somethign else wrong.
Also this is in my bedroom, as welive in a flat and space is a bit of a premium. would it be better say in the lounge, away from any possible nasties?

any and all help would be most welcome
Thankyou

[brewnaboinne]

It seems that you are taking incredible efforts to clean the FV then putting 23l untreated tap water into it. Personally I would boil and cool all the liquor that will end up in the beer. Your fermentation temp is close to the max perhaps a lower temp might produce less off flavours. I don't think it matters which room you use. Other thoughts: I wouldn't let washing up liquid near my brewing stuff, the fermentation seems awful slow, are you aerating the wort properly before you pitch the yeast?
Hope this helps

[Happy brewer]

Hello Brewnaboinne,
would it matter if i boil around 5 litres at a time, as that is the biggest stock pot i have got, i see your point, in that boil would kill any potential bacteria or unwanted nasties from the tap water.
also, on my emmersion heater i can turn it down to 18c and max of 28c.
I was thinking of just turing the heater on during the night between say 1 am to 4 am, when the ambient temperature is at its coolest
I did leave a bucket of plain water at 24c in the box i made, and it held its temperature for around 48 hours before cooling to 22c.
Might i be better off, trying to keep it around 20-21c?
Yes i stir and aerarte the malt with the 3 litres, adn the remainder of 20 litres, i pour from a height, to indcue a splash, and stir this all like crazy when the bucket is full.
Is it possible the detergents in the washing up liquid are still present even though i have rinsed it out 5 times?
sorry for all the questions, but i like to know as much as is possible about what i am doing.
Thankyou again

[gobuchul]

I have done about 7 brews now.

I have had no problem with infections and my cleaning routine is far more simple than yours!

Do not use washing up liquid, to clean use non-perfumed oxy clean, Asda do one without perfume, I get mine from Poundstretcher, which cleans brilliantly and leaves no smell. Rinse well after cleaning.

I use a non-rinse santizer, similar to Star San, all I do is spray on the surfaces of FV's and all over paddles etc. I leave for a while then collect the run off and put it back in the bottle, as long as it's not cloudy, it's still effective.

I also use tap water and I don't bother to boil either.

As was suggested above, your problem may be a too high fermentation temperature causing the off flavours. I ferment at 20C.

[Happy brewer]

ok. thankyou for the advice.
my problem is being new to this is follow the instructions, probably a little to close. i will turn off the heater, and let it sit another few days and see.

I know what temperature to aim for next time and will avoid the washing up liquid.

Thankyou gobuchul

[gobuchul]

I just reread your first post.

8 days to complete fermentation is very quick. Nearly all the kits have very short times in them.

I was advised to leave any brew for at least 2 weeks before bottling.

[Happy brewer]

This is what confused me a little, as it says the yeast is a slow ferminting type of varietal yeast, and i did think 8 days was fast, i know i have had a woodfordes ferment in 6 days, but that was with a fast fermenting yeast, but with a ton of sediment (near 4 inches deep).

would the extended time allow the yeast to get rid of any unwanted aromas ?

[oldbloke]

You're massively overdoing the cleaning.
Don't use Fairy for a start.
I oxyclean only if obvious dirt or mould etc, with a cheap unscented oxy cleaner from the garden centre. If I oxy, I rinse thoroughly twice.
I might rinse with a kettle full of boiling water, I might not bother.
I had VWP in my starter kit so I still use that. That or Starsan, both is overkill. With VWP, I make up about a gallon with hot water, make sure all the surfaces get coated, leave a while, rinse thoroughly twice.

Having said that, your problem /could/ be poor cleaning. Not what you use but making sure you really do clean everything. Are all the lids, utensils, etc, getting VWP'd or Starsan'd? The immersion heater is a likely source of problems, and you probably don't need it with an insulated box. Flush through the airlock with sanitiser? Its bung? Or the grommet it fits into?

Or, maybe, are you a lid lifter, who likes to look at their brew every day? Every time you open the lid, all sorts can get in. Leave it alone for the first 10 days, then check the gravity.

We'd have to come and watch you to really nail it, probably.

Somebody mentioned the water you use for the actual brew. I trust mine and have had no problems using it straight from the tap, but in many areas it's wise to boil it all or use bottled.

[minesapint]

If your fermenter has a plastic tap fitted near the bottom, unscrew it and dismantle the tap. Then really clean the tap out.
Make a note of the position of the sealing washers ie inside or outside the vessel before removing the tap.
I made about twenty all grain brews until I read about dismantling and cleaning the tap out thoroughly.
It was really manky in there and I was very lucky to get away without spoiled brews.
Nowadays I always dismantle the tap after brewing, sterilise and reassemble, then I leave the fermenter with about half an inch of water and table spoon of sodium metabisulphate in the bottom to keep it all sweet for the next brew.
It is worth keeping some spare sealing washers as they don't last forever with all of the dismantling and reassembly.

Cheers.

[Happy brewer]

interesting, so maybe it would be better to just make up the 1 gallon of the vwp, and swirl it around.
is it worth it, to use a brandnew cloth, also soaked in teh vwp solution, and wipe down the FV inside and out, lid, utensils etc, alos i do take off the grommits and bungs, and use a small bottle brush to clean them and only them.

At the moment i am using a chamber airlock, and have noticed once or twice, as the yeast heats up and produces the condensation on the inside of the lid, it also condenses in the airlock, could the run off from that cause an issue, i do put some vodka into the airlock, only fill one chamber to just under the fill mark.
I have bought a handy airlock now, to try with my next batch, seems less likely to have the same issue as the chamber airlock.

I have got the wilko own brand 25litre bucket with lid, and after reading gobuchul's post, i got me empty FV and it has got a slight acidic smell to it, after the second failed brew, i soaked everything in a strong bleach solution, filled up the buckets to the rim, and put in 100ml of bleach per bucket.
smelled good for a while, but now its got that smell.
could it be the buckets are no good/to cheap ?

also i am thinking would a belt heater or a heating pad be better, as i have go the heater at the moment on a digital timer switch, so i can set it.

again a big thank you to everyone's advice and tips

[daf]

TBH, for peace of mind, ditch those buckets and buy new ones, you will never feel at peace with them.

Get yourself some starsan, failing that, some plain old thin bleach (but rinse like crazy)

Don't boil your tapwater, this isn't Bombay.

[Manngold]

I have always washed my fv with washing up liquid then given it a thorough rinse. Is this ill advised?

[Pinto]

Repeated vinegar making suggests to me you have a fruit fly problem. I'd also add that I have a rooted dislike of immersion heaters - ESPECIALLY if yours are actually going into the brew.

Try doing a brew away from your fermentation box, just a fermenter /airlock in somewhere warm like an airing cupboard and see if your problems disappear. If so, it's a case of adding in the variables one by one until you find what the problem is - although if you can, dump the immersions altogether and move to a brew fridge (or at the very least, use them to heat the brew indirectly by placing the immersion in a trug of water surrounding the FV)

Good luck with the search.

I have always washed my fv with washing up liquid then given it a thorough rinse. Is this ill advised?

Nothing will kill the head forming ability of your beer more effectively than washing up liquid. Avoid using it - much better off with non-perfumed oxi or thin bleach followed by a campden rinse.

[brewnaboinne]

Plenty of people in Ireland have been on boil water notices for more than 5 years, it doesn't do any harm to boil it to make sure it's sterile even if you're not in Bombay.No problem boiling in batches. As Oldbloke said you probably don't need the heater if the FV is insulated as the yeast generates it's own heat. As for washing up liquid it will ruin your head retention unless you get rid of 100%. Ah Pinto beat me to the button. My brews usually ferment out in about 4 -5 days , maybe there is something wrong with your yeast?

[oldbloke]

A 5 gallon bin doesn't really need an airlock. Just crack the lid a fraction when it domes right up. The lock and fittings are just an extra place problems can arise.