PH Level of Star San

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Binkie Huckaback
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PH Level of Star San

Post by Binkie Huckaback » Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:11 pm

Fed up with the conflicting information on the use of Star San on the internet and thinking that in the FAQ section on 5 Star's website, the answer to the question

"Why is my Star San cloudy?"

Is

"Cloudiness in Star San may be because it is over a year old or because of hard water minerals reacting to the chemical"

But with no mention of ph levels of the water used to mix it with was a bit vague, I decided to call 5 Star to get a definitive answer.

The person I spoke to said that with regard to using hard water with Star San, cloudiness is indeed down to ph levels. The effect it will have? Cloudy Star San. That's all. No degradation in efficacy. Just that you can't see through it.

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by guypettigrew » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:07 am

Binkie Huckaback wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:11 pm
The person I spoke to said that with regard to using hard water with Star San, cloudiness is indeed down to ph levels. The effect it will have? Cloudy Star San. That's all. No degradation in efficacy. Just that you can't see through it.
Which makes it very difficult to find stuff if, like me, you chuck everything in a bucket of Starsan.

I use RO water from my local aquatic shop. My TDS meter gives me a reading of 7ppm, which is nice and low. The Starsan stays clear for ages and is replaced when it gets cloudy.

The pH of the Starsan solution should, I seem to remember, be less than 3 for it to be effective.

Guy

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Eric
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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by Eric » Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:36 pm

The pH of a lemon is said to be around 2.5 and that for Coca Cola 2.3. Phosphoric acid is the ingredient in Star San mainly responsible for its low pH, as it also is for Coca Cola.

When phosphoric acid reacts with calcium bicarbonate in a water supply, calcium phosphate will be formed. That is mostly insoluble and so causes the cloudiness you have observed, and also indicate the reduction in the amount of phosphoric acid present.
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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by Carnot » Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:37 pm

Here we go again. I would not bother trying to measure the pH of a Starsan solution for the simple reason is that you have a surfactant called DDBSA, that will not help any pH probe,especially a cheapo pH probe that you will find on low cost pH meters.

Eric is 100% correct in that hard water will precipitate calcium phosphate with Starsan. I did a calculation on the first dissociation constant of phosphoric acid ( it has 3) and realised that even the hardest of hard potable waters, it would still achieve a pH of below 3 at the use recommended use concentration of Starsan (the maths are a bit involved).

I have never been a fan of Starsan. It is at best a biostat. I simply have never had reason to use it as it is the chemical equivalent of phosphoric acid and Fairy Liquid ( except Fairy Liquid does not contain DDBSA)

By the way pH is not spelt ph, PH or Ph. pH stands for the the negative log of the hydrogen ion concentration. Sorry to be picky but if you want to delve into the subject it is best to get it right.

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by Binkie Huckaback » Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:01 pm

Carnot wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:37 pm

By the way pH is not spelt ph, PH or Ph. pH stands for the the negative log of the hydrogen ion concentration. Sorry to be picky but if you want to delve into the subject it is best to get it right.
Sorry about that. I too am usually a stickler for that kind of thing.

Do you (or does anyone else) know why there is so much nonsense surrounding StarSan as a no-rinse sanitiser and so little information on the subject from Five Star?

Other than 'if your water is the wrong pH level, you can't use it', I've also read on a other forum that it has to be mixed at something like 40°c and that once mixed it keeps for a long time.

The instructions say to ensure what is sanitised says wet for one minute, but allow to air dry. Is that only necessary if you're going to store what you've sanitised, or is that before you're going to use the item (say sanitising a FV and then adding beer while the FV is still wet with sanitiser)?
Last edited by Binkie Huckaback on Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Eric
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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by Eric » Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:57 pm

Binkie Huckaback wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:01 pm

Do you (or does anyone else) know why there is so much nonsense surrounding StarSan as a no-rinse sanitiser and so little information on the subject from Five Star?
I'd guess the lack of information from Five Star is due to their products not doing what people think they can, like the additive for a pH 5.2 mash.

It seems half the homebrewers in the world swear by Star San, while others, including myself, don't use it. By this I am reminded that for probably my first 20 years of brewing, I trusted sodium metabisulphite to sanitise my equipment and thought it worked perfectly. I feel sure Star San is probably much better.
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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by vacant » Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:14 pm

Carnot wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:37 pm
By the way pH is not spelt ph, PH or Ph. pH stands for the the negative log of the hydrogen ion concentration. Sorry to be picky but if you want to delve into the subject it is best to get it right.
In the title? Probably just auto-capitalisation. My Android tablet is set up to do that.

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by Carnot » Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:07 pm

i will probably get head shot off but I will stick my head above the parapet on this one.

There are many products placed on the market that claim to be the be all and end all. Most are nothing special, just products assembled from off the shlef components and sold as something special. Take Vanish, a stain remover. A mixture of sodium percarbonate and sodium metasilicate, some perfume, a pinch of aninoic surfactant and a lot of bullshit. Sure it works, so does the same thing if you make it yourself.

So what is specail about Starsan. In my opinion not much. It has been hyped, as Americans are want to do. The trick is too make wild claims, pump up the price, and provide little evidence that it actually does what is says on the tin, and hope it gains enough traction from the gullible who buy into the claims. A bit like Microsoft; never quite delivers. Some would call it snake oil; others might use a little stronger terminology.

So as per my previous post, Starsan is a mix of phosphoric acid and DDBSA. At the recommended application rate there is enough acid to depress ANY POTABLE water to below pH3. Is it a sanitiser; that depends on the definition of sanitiser or your percieved definition which might differ from reality. I do not see anything that I would call a sanitiser in the product. It is at best a biostat.

I would not "sanitise" my equipment with Starsan and store it in the belief the surfaces would remain sanitised. Period. Neither would I expect any sanitiser to maintin a a clean sanitised surface.

My equipwmnt is ALWAyS sanitised immeditely prior to use and I use a a caustic based food standard sanitiser that is a fraction of the price of Starsan; it is always rinsed immediately prior to used.

Like Eric, I have never had the need to use Starsan and never will revert to using it - there is no need. Needless to say the loss of Starsan from the marketplace will not lead to angst on my part.

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by MashBag » Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:38 am

Carrot, Well said.

I too feared getting shot, but have banged on about this subject & caustic cleaner for years.

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by Meatymc » Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:35 pm

Carnot wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:07 pm
I use a a caustic based food standard sanitiser that is a fraction of the price of Starsan
Would appreciate a clue as to what exactly you use - gearing up to restock a lot of stuff and any saving I can make on so-called 'specialist products' would certainly help.

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by Carnot » Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:14 pm


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MashBag
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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by MashBag » Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:01 am

I use caustic truck wash. TFR.

This sort of thing...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FLEETCLEAN-X ... 635-2958-0

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by MashBag » Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:04 am

Carnot wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:07 pm

... and I use a a caustic based food standard sanitiser that is a fraction of the price of Starsan; it is always rinsed immediately prior to used.
Does food grade matter, if you are rinsing thoroughly?

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Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by vacant » Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:14 am

If you're going to rinse, particularly if cash is tight, then diluted thin bleach is a great option. It took me a while to realise the chlorine smell after rinsing the Jerry can was simply the air trapped in it.

I also wondered if a campden tablet in the final rinse would work but looking at the dilution with a couple of rinses reassured me it wasn't necessary.

McMullan

Re: PH Level of Star San

Post by McMullan » Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:25 am

Carnot wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:14 pm
Try these. Both work


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164854015699 ... SwTMlfPOgV

Clover Trio 100

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161205511360 ... SwM8NcpcDY

Selden Kitchen Cleaner.
More of the same in terms of synthetic surfactants with limited antimicrobial activity and the added con they’re more persistent than alkyl benzene sulfonate, the ‘key’ ingredient in StarSan, therefore more environmentally harmful. The problem with these synthetic detergents, as sanitisers, is they only work on membranes of active bacteria cells, at ‘safe’ working concentrations. Although I do think there’s a place for these limited bactericides in the home brewery. Handy in a spray bottle for surface cleaning and blasting away paranoia. If you find them expensive, you’re prepping far too much. A 0.75L container of StarSan lasted me about 8 years. I replaced it a couple months back. But my primary sanitisers are bleach and iodophor, depending on the job. Glass and plastic get bleach and stainless gets iodophor generally. Both offer broad antimicrobial activity at ‘safe’ working concentrations. They don’t just tickle cell lipid membranes, they denature proteins and silence nucleic acids therefore halt biological activity of exposed microbes generally. The added benefit (for me at least) is both degrade very quickly so environmental impact is very limited. As a no-rinse sanitiser it’s difficult to beat iodophor (at 12ppm).

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