Mangrove Jacks Belgians: M31 and M41. Any views?

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MTW
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Mangrove Jacks Belgians: M31 and M41. Any views?

Post by MTW » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:15 am

Haven't been here for a while, after a few months off. Anyway, got my backside in gear and planning to ferment 5kg pale, 500g special b and a bit of sugar for a darkish 20L of Belgian somethingorother. I've got 2 packets each of M31 and M41. Never used before.

Anyone got any experiences?
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Dave S
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Re: Mangrove Jacks Belgians: M31 and M41. Any views?

Post by Dave S » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:17 pm

MTW wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:15 am
Haven't been here for a while, after a few months off. Anyway, got my backside in gear and planning to ferment 5kg pale, 500g special b and a bit of sugar for a darkish 20L of Belgian somethingorother. I've got 2 packets each of M31 and M41. Never used before.

Anyone got any experiences?
Cheers
Not those specific two but I brewed a Belgian Dubbel a couple of years ago using MJ 27 and it turned out very well. I'm guessing that MJ 41 is what used to be called MJ 27 as the latter is no longer mentioned on their site and the description of 41 fits with 27.
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Dave

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Re: Mangrove Jacks Belgians: M31 and M41. Any views?

Post by MTW » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:29 pm

Dave S wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:17 pm
MTW wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:15 am
Haven't been here for a while, after a few months off. Anyway, got my backside in gear and planning to ferment 5kg pale, 500g special b and a bit of sugar for a darkish 20L of Belgian somethingorother. I've got 2 packets each of M31 and M41. Never used before.

Anyone got any experiences?
Cheers
Not those specific two but I brewed a Belgian Dubbel a couple of years ago using MJ 27 and it turned out very well. I'm guessing that MJ 41 is what used to be called MJ 27 as the latter is no longer mentioned on their site and the description of 41 fits with 27.
Thanks Dave. Glad yours turned out well. From a quick Google, it looks like M27 is (or was) a saison yeast, despite just being called 'Belgian Ale'. I can see why they've ended the confusion in the line up. Where M27 has gone, I don't know. M41 is described on the packet as monastic, and M31 as being suited to tripels or 'a range of Belgian Styles'. I have had a decent 'tripel' made with a saison yeast (Belle), but I don't want this one shooting down to 1.002 or anything. I hope that M31 is not M27 repackaged (though I appreciate you got good results in any case).

Edit - I see M47 is on their current list as as 'Belgian Abbey'. Hopefully this means they've got at least two different original abbey sources there, with the 'monastic' M41 as well.

I'm amazed how little is out there on people's results from these...
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Re: Mangrove Jacks Belgians: M31 and M41. Any views?

Post by steviebobs83 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:14 pm

I did a Westvleteren 12 clone (all grain) with M31 and it's the best beer I've made to date, got it from 1.092 down to 1.011 which left plenty of body and flavour.

I used M47 place of the standard unbranded yeast in an old bulldog lager kit I got give, boosted with a little bit of candi sugar and a hop tea. Got that from 1.048 down to 1.016 but it still tasted a little thin. Perfectly drinkable though with some nice belgiany flavours.

No experience of M41 but if the other 2 were anything to go on, it'll be great.

Hope that helps

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Re: Mangrove Jacks Belgians: M31 and M41. Any views?

Post by Robwalkeragain » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:06 am

I'm not sure if it's the same strain but I did use the saison yeast a while back (before the rebrand.) Found it quite balanced and not too much of any of the big flavours (banana/bubblegum/phenolic) but definitely identifiable as a saison rather than a Belgian blonde etc.

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Re: Mangrove Jacks Belgians: M31 and M41. Any views?

Post by MTW » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:44 pm

Thanks all. Brewed today and pitched 2 rehydrated packs of M31 into a 1.068 Belgian. I got some feedback from a friend yesterday who said he used M31 in his kwak clone. I tasted that at the time and it was terrific, so fingers crossed.

For what it's worth, M41 certainly doesn't read like a saison strain on the pack, so I don't think M27 can have become M41, but I can't be sure.
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Re: Mangrove Jacks Belgians: M31 and M41. Any views?

Post by Clibit » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:34 pm

I'm pretty sure M27 became M29 French Saison. Yeast sans frontieres.

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Re: Mangrove Jacks Belgians: M31 and M41. Any views?

Post by Kingfisher4 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:41 pm

Any recommendations for a tried and tested (simple) all grain recipe for a Belgian ale with M31 would be great, I know there are huge breadths in that genre but an introductory "can't fail" would be great to add to the shortlist of beers to brew very soon.

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Re: Mangrove Jacks Belgians: M31 and M41. Any views?

Post by steviebobs83 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:47 am

Kingfisher4 wrote:Any recommendations for a tried and tested (simple) all grain recipe for a Belgian ale with M31 would be great, I know there are huge breadths in that genre but an introductory "can't fail" would be great to add to the shortlist of beers to brew very soon.
Here's the recipe I used for a quad/westy clone, warts and all.

Notes:
• I made my own candi sugar but the recipe is significantly easier, if not more expensive, to buy it.
• I used some oldish Tetnaang hops as the late addition as I didn't have any other noble hops to hand.
• Be very careful if using solid candi sugar as it has a tendency to sink to the bottom of the boiler and stick
• Whilst the recipe is fairly simple, temp control is key to getting the best results.
• The finished product needs a fairly long time to age and mellow out
• I used a grainfather so you may need to adjust according to your system efficiency

Image

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MTW
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Re: Mangrove Jacks Belgians: M31 and M41. Any views?

Post by MTW » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:39 pm

It's off well this morning. Can only have been a maximum of 12 hours or so lag. Lots of CO2, a fairly creamy head, and some banana smell just starting to come through:

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Re: Mangrove Jacks Belgians: M31 and M41. Any views?

Post by MTW » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:51 pm

Update after 14 days: it went from 1.068 to 1.019 in under 3 days and down to 1.006 today, where it seems to have stopped. That's 91% apparent attenuation by my maths!

It smells absolutely spot on, banana/caramel sort of aroma. I've noticed more of a tart greenness to the taste though, as the last few points ticked away. It tasted pretty perfect around 1.011 or so. My samples come from a bottom tap and it's still very yeasty, so I'm hoping it's partly the quantity of yeast in my mouth, and the lack of remaining sugars concealing byproducts; this stuff is in no rush to clear at all. There was diacetyl at one point, but that's gone now. That's one of the few byproducts I think I can identify reliably. I'm leaving it another day or two in the primary just to give it every chance to clear up a bit, before crash chilling in a second bucket.

I've never done a Belgian with dry yeast before, and I have read opinions that say dry yeast takes longer to 'clear up' after itself.
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Re: Mangrove Jacks Belgians: M31 and M41. Any views?

Post by Northern Brewer » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:05 pm

M29 French is a "beautiful" saison....

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Re: Mangrove Jacks Belgians: M31 and M41. Any views?

Post by Kingfisher4 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:46 pm

I am just about to take the next step in the brewing journey and invest in some effective temperature control so Belgian beers are top of the list to try.

I'm still confused about the available (dried) yeasts, have so far had my best results with golden and bitter ales with Mangrove Jacks. So, M31, M41 or M47?? The MJ data sheets are a bit vague. I would prefer to minimise the bubblegum / banana end of the ester flavour profile and go more for the peppery / spicy / other fruit end of the spectrum. Safale T-58 and Crossmyloof Belgian have been recommended elsewhere on the forum but other feedback suggests they may be at the wrong end of my preferred ester profile above, not sure if that is correct?

Any practical observations for yeast selection to minimise banana / bubblegum as above would be great.

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Re: Mangrove Jacks Belgians: M31 and M41. Any views?

Post by MTW » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:21 pm

I can update this now. My M31 beer was bizarre, in that it was tasting great at 1.011, and somehow picked up an off taste between there and where it finished around 1.005, that seems like some sort of fermentation related thing. It ceased getting any worse once it was at terminal gravity, so I bottled it and it is perfectly drinkable - just not as good as it looked to be. It was a bit of an odd recipe in fairness, with nearly 10% Special B, so maybe the final dryness [it attenuated to a crazy 92% or so] is just clashing with the grains somehow; I can't quite decide.

My next dubbel had a far more typical grain bill, and, for the first time, some homemade dark candi syrup (that I was very pleased with indeed). I fermented that with M41, which gave off roughly similar esters to the M31 throughout fermentation. They were both started at 18C or so, and ramped progressively into the low 20s. The second one tasted terrific on bottling; no last minute off tastes, just really pleasing and distinct Belgian esters. It's looking as good, if not better, than any Belgian I have made with one of the whitelabs abbey strains (530, 540 and 550, I have used). Both the M31 and M41 were fairly slow to clear after FG was reached, and I kept them at 1C for at least 10 days I think, and was still not crystal clear. The M31 was perhaps even less flocculant than the M41, though I'm not sure.
Kingfisher4 wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:46 pm
I am just about to take the next step in the brewing journey and invest in some effective temperature control so Belgian beers are top of the list to try.

I'm still confused about the available (dried) yeasts, have so far had my best results with golden and bitter ales with Mangrove Jacks. So, M31, M41 or M47?? The MJ data sheets are a bit vague. I would prefer to minimise the bubblegum / banana end of the ester flavour profile and go more for the peppery / spicy / other fruit end of the spectrum. Safale T-58 and Crossmyloof Belgian have been recommended elsewhere on the forum but other feedback suggests they may be at the wrong end of my preferred ester profile above, not sure if that is correct?

Any practical observations for yeast selection to minimise banana / bubblegum as above would be great.
I would say the M31 beer was perhaps slightly more bananary during fermentation, though it did get its sugar during the boil, and I have read that isoamyl acetate (the banana ester) is produced in greater abundance when the growing yeast has simple sugars in the wort. The M41 beer got its sugar on day 2, after fermentation was already strong. I like banana and bubblegum (to an extent), so maybe I am more tolerant of it than you, but I would say that if you pitch low, perhaps even lower than the 18C I used, you won't find it excessive. I had a La Trappe Blond last night, and it has to be the most bubblegum in a beer I have ever tasted. Far too much! These were nothing in that order.

All in all, I would definitely give M31 and M41 a try. I will certainly be repeating my M41 brew, and I'm going to stick some in a tripel too. I will probably give M31 another chance again as well.
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Re: Mangrove Jacks Belgians: M31 and M41. Any views?

Post by Kingfisher4 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:06 am

Many thanks, That is incredibly useful. I can’t wait to get my fermentation temperature control to try this. M41 it will be, to try initially.

I hadn’t come across the idea of adding the simple sugars on day two before either, that is interesting and makes sense.

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