Reinventing the "airlock"

Discuss all aspects of fermentation
User avatar
Meatymc
Drunk as a Skunk
Posts: 836
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: Northallerton, North Yorkshire

Re: Reinventing the "airlock"

Post by Meatymc » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:35 am

orlando wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:42 am
Hasn't happened yet. I'm finding it very difficult to let go but, I have another that I'm beginning to get very close to. :oops: Life moves on. :wink:
If it's any comfort I have 32 bottles of a bitter brewed with a fair amount of my home grown fuggles. It's rank despite seeming OK at bottling time. There are 32 (from an original 40) as I can't bring myself to pour them down the drain and keep opening 1 in the forlorn hope some miracle will happen. Now I'm back up to speed following the Xmas/New Year hiatus I'm soon going to need the bottles but it's still going to be a wrench - and I bet the number will have dropped further between now and then as I try and keep the faith :cry:

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7197
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: Reinventing the "airlock"

Post by orlando » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:49 am

All been there and if you haven't yet you probably will. :roll:
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

WalesAles
Falling off the Barstool
Posts: 3899
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:07 pm
Location: South Wales UK.

Re: Reinventing the "airlock"

Post by WalesAles » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:40 pm

orlando wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:23 am
I am about to pour a Beer down the drain because of a "fault" with a sample valve.
orlando,
And our survey said......... #-o
I`m surprised you didn`t send me a couple of bottles, I probably would have said `Wow, BLM!` :D :D

WA

Never mind, don`t cry, get another one on! =D>

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7197
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: Reinventing the "airlock"

Post by orlando » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:35 am

WalesAles wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:40 pm
orlando wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:23 am
I am about to pour a Beer down the drain because of a "fault" with a sample valve.
orlando,
And our survey said......... #-o
I`m surprised you didn`t send me a couple of bottles, I probably would have said `Wow, BLM!` :D :D

WA

Never mind, don`t cry, get another one on! =D>
There's two on. =D>
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

McMullan

Re: Reinventing the "airlock"

Post by McMullan » Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:48 pm

I thought I should update this thread, as I've been fermenting this way for some time now and I'm very happy with the results. So much so, I ditched the plastic FV and bucket for a stainless 29L FV and 15L pot.
IMG_0359.JPG
If you don't like mess, don't get into home brew.
IMG_0363.JPG
Relax, this is the norm!

Here's some yeast I top cropped for the next batch:
IMG_0368.JPG
You can't buy yeast like this, you have to make it yourself and use it within a few days. It's like Rambo looking for a jungle!

McMullan

Re: Reinventing the "airlock"

Post by McMullan » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:53 pm

With several gravity points remaining (early to mid day 3) I close the FV (after a tussle with 'Rambo') and fix a spunding valve.
IMG_0372.JPG
Conditions very quickly, within a couple days, possibly due to so many active yeast cells present. I then drop the temperature to 15℃ and most beers are actually ready after 2-3 days and get transferred to kegs, a full 20L and an almost full 9L.

In terms of the process itself, I've changed the length of time recirculating through the yeast trough from 5 minutes to 1. Initially, I was basing the procedure on published descriptions from early last century, but then realised the system (volume) I'm using is piddly by comparison. I've tried a number of English yeast strains. Many don't respond well. You really need to be using a Yorkshire strain accustomed to this kind of system. WLP037 (Yorkshire Square) is what I'm using above. I initially pitch a big (2.5L) starter culture in a half batch (14L FV).
IMG_0307.JPG
IMG_0110.JPG
Then repitch into a full batch (32L).

I've never really noticed much change in yeast/fermentation behaviour when repitching generally, but I do using this system. I think the yeast trough traps the most metabolically active cells, which release more CO2 therefore rise into the yeast trough through the yeast hole. The recirculating wort feeds them and keeps them primed for the next batch, as much as it keeps yeast cells in suspension in the FV below.

User avatar
Eric
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2873
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
Location: Sunderland.

Re: Reinventing the "airlock"

Post by Eric » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:12 pm

Another wonderful arrangement John, making me very envious of your skills and facilities and making my set-up look quite pathetic by comparison.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7197
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: Reinventing the "airlock"

Post by orlando » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:49 pm

Superb effort. I think you may just have cracked that. Is it in effect the same as a Burton Union system, albeit just one brewing vessel?
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

User avatar
MashBag
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2140
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:13 am

Re: Reinventing the "airlock"

Post by MashBag » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:44 am

McMullan wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:42 pm
... perfectly pointless bit of kit, often promoted by those who wouldn't know a fermentation even if they fell in one, face first, with their eyes wide open. I put one on after fermentation :wink:
You... said that... out loud... Bravo.

I have read this thread cover to cover. Brilliant.

Do you think that the difference is because you are keeping the yeast from going anaerobic?

LoDo eat your heart out.

McMullan

Re: Reinventing the "airlock"

Post by McMullan » Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:47 am

MashBag wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:44 am
McMullan wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:42 pm
... perfectly pointless bit of kit, often promoted by those who wouldn't know a fermentation even if they fell in one, face first, with their eyes wide open. I put one on after fermentation :wink:
Do you think that the difference is because you are keeping the yeast from going anaerobic?
No, I think it's more to do with an airlock introducing sufficient back pressure to interfere with CO2 evolving from yeast cells. The strains I mainly use (descendants of 'Rambo') just get angrier and blow things off. CO2 is a stress factor for yeast and it can slow fermentation performance. I'm yet to try fermenting with a good top cropper under pressure. I'm not sure if the temperature has to be increased to compensate for anything? I'll let someone else carry out that experiment.

McMullan

Re: Reinventing the "airlock"

Post by McMullan » Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:51 am

Cheers, Eric. I thought you’d like that one.

I think, based on my understanding, Orlando, which is a bit limited for the Burton Union system, the Burton Union and Yorkshire Square are both about managing yeast, but in different ways due to subtle differences in yeast behaviour. Local brewing culture practiced and expectations about the end product, too, of course. The Burton Union is a continuously recirculated system, where top cropping yeast are batch fed fresh wort then cropped automatically as they actively climb out out the fermenting wort, as it passes through the system. They aren’t very flocculant during active fermentation so easily cropped, albeit by a sophisticated system that acts like a filter, in terms of producing fairly bright beer downstream of the process. It’s likely we have to rack off from under these strains at home? By contrast, fermenting wort in a Yorkshire Square gets recirculated periodically for short bursts, after fermentation activity peaks and until it begins to wane or before.* The Yorkshire Square yeast strains are typically highly flocculant, although the most metabolically active cells (younger and more genetically stable?) climb out of the sweet wort, like Burton Union strains do, but they also express bottom fermenting behaviour too. (You’d be forgiven for assuming you had a dual strain culture here.) The problem is they’re so flocculant they soon compact on the bottom of the FV and start to fractionate, where buried layers, with limited access to sufficient wort resources, go dormant, slowing fermentation. So they need a good rousing to get them back in suspension where they can ferment the wort more efficiently. That goes for those that flocculate in the yeast trough too. In contrast to the gentle recirculation in a Burton Union, the recirculation in a Yorkshire Square needs to be quite forceful, to disturb the yeast back in suspension.

*This timing (window) is likely crucial, imo, as during active fermentation, especially at a commercial scale, the yeast produce so much CO2 it acts as an effective barrier to air above the yeast trough. I’m now very skeptical about the idea air (O2) plays a role (boosting yeast performance) during active fermentation in a Yorkshire Square or other systems where wort is recirculated and sprayed back in. If it did, I’d expect Yorkshire Square brewers to start recirculating after pitching yeast, but they don’t. I’m not aware of any data for or against any role for O2, but sticking your head over a Yorkshire Square during active fermentation then taking a good sniff is quite persuasive evidence. But I have heard commercial brewers claiming things like ‘our yeast strain really likes air during fermentation’. I’m not sure if they’re just confused or taking the p*ss.

User avatar
MashBag
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2140
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:13 am

Re: Reinventing the "airlock"

Post by MashBag » Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:39 pm

So I have a confession. I don't airlock.
I use youngs wide mouth fermenter and 'just crack' the lid. Would the effect be similar?

McMullan

Re: Reinventing the "airlock"

Post by McMullan » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:29 am

MashBag wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:39 pm
So I have a confession. I don't airlock.
I use youngs wide mouth fermenter and 'just crack' the lid. Would the effect be similar?
Which effect are you referring to, exactly?

f00b4r
Site Admin
Posts: 1528
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:54 pm
Location: Berlin

Re: Reinventing the "airlock"

Post by f00b4r » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:49 am

An awesome experiment and good to see that it seems to make a difference.
A few questions for you though :) :

- How does the resulting beer differ between the re-pitched stuff and the initial fresh pitch from a regular starter that you use to seed the system ? I’m just wondering how much change is due to the Yorkshire square recirculating the yeast/wort and how much may be due to selection in subsequent yeast generations.

- The 30L Speidel fv you used originally is actually 35L, is the 30L kegmenter smaller in terms of real volume? I see that the “square” still “seems” to be 15L, does this give a better ratio between the two vessels (eg to contain the yeast)?

- Does the fv/kegmenter need fully filling for it to work effectively and have you tried different volumes?

- You seem to have used two different pumps for the two setups, what are they and any issues with sanitation/cleaning them?

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7197
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: Reinventing the

Post by orlando » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:23 pm

f00b4r wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:49 am
- You seem to have used two different pumps for the two setups, what are they and any issues with sanitation/cleaning them?
And what about priming/cavitation issues?
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

Post Reply