5.2 Advice

[SteveD]

Not, sure but I would suspect you risk adding too much and being able to taste it relying on CRS for the acidity correction alone rather than also relying on gypsum and the natural buffering capacity of the mash.
Recalling a post by Aleman, a water that is low in carbonates is likely to change acidity quickly with small additions so you could get to the point where the next drop quickly throws the ph off the other way.

I agree, and I don't do that. I use CRS only to get the liquor to neutral ph or just below, and let the mash do the rest, correcting if necessary with DLS or lactic acid, depending on the beer type.

Even at neutral PH I suspect there is still a presence of carbonate, balanced by whatever sulphates are present.

Lactic acid would work but DLS requires adding to the dry goods according to Murphys so can't be used on an adhoc basis for adjusting the mash PH.

It's added to the dry goods to ensure it goes into the mash. I think what they're trying to say is don't add it to the HLT. I don't see the difference between Grain+DLS then Liquor = Mash, and Grain+Liquor then DLS = mash. It's still all three mixed in the mash tun. I can see why they don't want it in the HLT as it's not particularly soluble and half of it might end up settled out on the bottom. As it is, I premix what I think it'll need with the dry goods anyway, but I don't see the problem with stirring it into the wet mash.

[SteveD]

I don't see the difference between Grain+DLS then Liquor = Mash, and Grain+Liquor then DLS = mash.

As odd as it might seem Murphys aren't the only people to recommend adding certain salts to the dry grains as this is the only way it will effectively alter the ph, so presumably there is a difference, the remainder of the salts are added to the kettle during the boil. I would have thought if you are having to guess the DLS additions this method can't be any more accurate than relying on a water report.

It works out a bit more accurate than relying on a water report if only because starting from PH near 7, and knowing the composition of the grist, and having done numerous mashes, I can estimate it close enough. The only times it went wildly off - due to overcooking the CRS - is when I relied on (a) the water report, and (b) got caught out by rapidly changing water composition.

Now, I get the liquor to around seven in the HLT, and estimate the DLS or lactic acid addition to the mash according to mash liquor volume, grist composition, & beer type. Works better now. Then, I further drop the remaining liquor in the HLT to Ph 5.5-5.9 for the sparge.

[Graham]

Brupaks is wrong; their instructions on their web site say to add salts to the mash with the statement: "This is most important as adding it to raw liquor will not affect the mash pH". That's wrong. It will behave just the same as long as it all goes into solution; it makes no difference. Getting it into solution is not a problem when adding it to the mash.

Commercial brewers do not relish the idea of climbing into their heavily lagged HLT to clear out sludge, so any undissolved stuff on the bottom of their HLT would be alien to them. Sulphuric and hydrochloric acids as CRS do not produce precipitates and therefore no sludge, so brewers prefer to use those acids if their water is suitable, otherwise they have to use other acids and tolerate precipitates and therefore sludge.

So what the Brupaks instructions do is reflect commercial practices without knowing why. It may have come directly from the Murphy's instructions of course, but I don't have them. I wouldn't be surprised. The water section on the Murphys web site is so bad that if they were a bicycle shop, I wouldn't trust them to blow up my tyres.

[Graham]

Brupaks is wrong; their instructions on their web site say to add salts to the mash with the statement: "This is most important as adding it to raw liquor will not affect the mash pH". That's wrong. It will behave just the same as long as it all goes into solution; it makes no difference. Getting it into solution is not a problem when adding it to the mash.

These are the same instructions given by Murphys as far as I know

I do not have the Murphy's stuff, or their instructions, but take note of what I said previously about re-inflating bicycle tyres.

and i've seen similar advice on US homebrew boards, possibly the HBD

Well there ya go!

so I never questioned it when I read it on the... ...CBA website.

Umm!

How has this misinformation come about then ?

It isn't exactly misinformation. It is nothing more than a badly-worded phrase on the Brupaks website, which people take too seriously at face value. I am a class master at badly-worded phrases, so I know all about them. I can see where the confusion arises, in that the Ph of the water is not reflected in the pH of the mash - which is true. The assertion that adding it to the raw liquor will not work is not true.

It is as simple as A+B=C; if it's in the water, it must end up in the mash - it is that basic. If you are using CRS, it makes no difference either way. If you boil, there is an advantage to throwing some calcium salts into the water while boiling, but that's a different subject.

[Graham]

I do not have the Murphy's stuff, or their instructions, but take note of what I said previously about re-inflating bicycle tyres.

It's the Murphys instructions that are published in one of the CBA journals iirc.

It is as simple as A+B=C; if it's in the water, it must end up in the mash - it is that basic. If you are using CRS, it makes no difference either way.

Why not on the mash ? Doesn't the addition of calcium improve enzyme activity, run off and reduce the risk of hazes ?

Add your salts to the mash. Add your salts to the liquor. Add your salts to the grist before mashing. It makes little difference. It is up to the preferred practice of the brewer concerned - a convenience thing.

The only major point that I was trying to make is that to say that adding the salts to the liquor won't work is wrong. It will work, as long as you can get calcium sulphate to dissolve in cold water, which is a different issue.

(I suppose at the very least adding salts the the dry grains ensures they are evenly distributed if mixed in well before doughing in).

Oh! Mash-in please.

[Graham]

OK, 'Mash In', comes from reading homebrewing books by US authors.

That wasn't a criticism - it is just that the Luddite that lurks within sometimes rises to the surface.

[SteveD]

It works out a bit more accurate than relying on a water report if only because starting from PH near 7, and knowing the composition of the grist, and having done numerous mashes, I can estimate it close enough. The only times it went wildly off - due to overcooking the CRS - is when I relied on (a) the water report, and (b) got caught out by rapidly changing water composition.

How can you work out or estimate how much DLS to add though, for eg based on your experience how much DLS would you add to the mash once you have neutralised the ph and got your bicarbonates close to where they should be.

Depending on the size of the mash and composition - nothing for dark beers, porters, stouts, lagers, 4-5g for a crystal malty bitter, 6-9g for a pale ale depending on how much 'Burton' I want. Lagers I treat with lactic acid.

[SteveD]

Hmmmm, interesting, so what are you basing those additions on then ?

What the PH of the mash ends up being It's just trial and error. The trouble with using tables for DLS addition is it presupposes that you know how much Calcium, Sulphate, and Chloride, you already have in the liquor. I don't have a clue and so I add by trial and error until the PH is right. Once you've got a modicum of experience, you get a feel for what the ammounts should be to put you in the ball park.

In the days of boiling the liquor or lactic acid addition, after Norman from Art of Brewing pointed out that it would knock out the carbonate without boiling, and then lobbing some gypsum in it, I used to hit 5.2 pretty regularly, and if not, it wouldn't be far off.