What figures/treatment would you get?

[stephenfranks]

I am brewing my first AG on Sunday, an Old Growler Porter recipe.

Now.... I live in Royston, Hertfordshire and our water is very chalky.

The figures from the Water Board are as follows:

All figures in parts per million (ppm)
Calcium 111
Magnesium 2.8
Sodium 10
Potassium 2.3
Chloride 18
Sulphate 19
Hardness as CaCO3 278
Carbonate CO3 167ppm

I put these into GW's calculator and am not sure I got the right result.

What treatment would you give the liquor for a porter?

[Graham]

I am brewing my first AG on Sunday, an Old Growler Porter recipe.

All figures in parts per million (ppm)
Calcium 111
Magnesium 2.8
Sodium 10
Potassium 2.3
Chloride 18
Sulphate 19
Hardness as CaCO3 278
Carbonate CO3 167ppm

I put these into GW's calculator and am not sure I got the right result.

What treatment would you give the liquor for a porter?

Jiggling the numbers you've given above to ionically balance the water, gives:
Calcium = 114.7
Magnesium = 2.8
Sodium = 10
Carbonate = 166.7
Sulphate = 19
Chloride = 15.4
Which can be entered into the initial water row in the calculator. Obviously the decimal points are superfluous, but it keeps everything tidily balanced.

What you end up with depends upon how you are going to reduce the carbonates. The popular method is to use CRS, which although quick and relatively easy, is problematic because it shoves loads of sulphate and loads of chloride into the water (in roughly equal amounts). Conventional wisdom has it that pale ales need lots of sulphate and next to no chloride and that porters need lots of chloride and next to no sulphate. Neither of which can be achieved with CRS in high-alkalinity water areas such as yours and mine. In my view CRS shoves far too much chloride into the water for its own good; 4N sulphuric acid (about the same strength as CRS) would have been a far more useful product (to me at least).

So if using CRS, the treatment calculator will not help a lot, and you will have to be content with the sulphate-chloride sulphate ratio that you end up with (1.3:1)

The ratio does not effect any of the brewing processes, just flavour (reputedly), and that is a subjective thing. It would be true to say that too much importance is placed on sulphate-chloride ratios anyway.

[stephenfranks]

Just the man to reply!

Thanks for this. Graham, where would I buy this 4N Sulphuric Acid?

Until I becoe more familiar with water treatment, what I really want to do is produce a sheet with water treatments for general, porter, stout, pale ale etc as per your calculator that tells me what to add step by step for say a 30l batch of liquor. Thsi would be an alternative to using your calculator each time.

Now the 4N Sulphuric Acid throws a spanner in the works as this dosent figure in your calculator!!

If I wanted to treat say 30L of liquor for a porter, I would add a Campden Tablet, then (x)ml of 4N Sulphuric Acid. Do I still need to add other salts as well?

If I knock up a quick spreadsheet would you consider filling in the boxes so that I can post as a guide for other brewers in my water area?

Best wishes

Stephen

[stephenfranks]

Hi Chris,

Thats a good way of putting it, nice and simple!

Soooo... Just a crushed campden tablet & the CRS into the HLT, nothing else..

Would you stick with this formula for all beer styles? I would probably only be ever doing english beers.. For Burton Ales, should I use BWC's?

Thanks so much

[stephenfranks]

Great, I think it makes sense now.

Thanks for all your help.

Best wishes

Stephen

[jubby]

Good luck with your brew stephen; brewing myself tomorrow. You have covered the most important part of the water treatment. Your water is very similar to mine, which isn't surprising, as I'm just up the road in Eversden. I find that dark ales and light summer ales work well with our water, so your should turn out well. I find it more difficult to produce mid coloured low ABV malty ales, but i'm sure that can be sorted.

There are about six of us JBK members that have occasional brewers meetings in Cambridge. I will let you know when the next one is if you are interested.

[stephenfranks]

Hi,

I would be vey interested in meeting up, sounds great!

I have friends in Caxton and have had many a drunken night at the Cross Keys, mostly in my youth!

If you were doing a porter, what treatment would you do?

Thanks Jubby!

[stephenfranks]

I didnt notice!

[Graham]

Beware I made a typo the first time I posted your "balanced" water composition, the carbonate should have read 166.7 (not 116.7). I've edited it to correct it.

The water profiles in the treatment calculator are "biased" in favour of CRS, so you should be able match the majority of them with your water composition. A new version of the calculator that I am currently working on has that bias removed, so I am going to have to find a way round that little snag.

The 4N sulphuric acid is a wish-list, not something that is readily available to us. If it was available it would solve half the problem and hydrochloric acid would solve the other half. I will be attempting to persuade a certain home-brew shop to stock both (and methyl-orange) when I go to visit them on a Jolly later in the year. The new version of the calculator will have an option for various strengths of sulphuric acid.

[jubby]

Hi,

I would be vey interested in meeting up, sounds great!

I have friends in Caxton and have had many a drunken night at the Cross Keys, mostly in my youth!

If you were doing a porter, what treatment would you do?

Thanks Jubby!

I would just stick with the CRS for now. In my opinion, darker beers are very forgiving in that they have a fairly powerful profile which will mask most discrepancies. Some of my best beers have been brewed with CRS only and maybe a little gypsum in the boil.

I will be in touch.

[stephenfranks]

Hi everyone,

I tested my water using a Salifert kit (a number of times until I worked out the right time colour changed) and got 260mg/l

I have been playing with Grahams calculator but I got wildly different figures to ChrisX1s 0.78mg/l CRS for bitters... I was changing the residual alkalinity according to beer type (20 for pale ale/bitters, 100 for milds and 150 for porter stouts).

I am a bit lacking in chemistry knowledge, and use of the calculator, but............ if I follow the steps below, can I use the output figures of the calculator safely?

1) Input my alkalinity figure in top row
2) Choose CRS as carbonate reduction method
3) Input my water board supplied figures on middle row (except carbonate?)
4) Adjust beer style
5) Adjust residual alkalinity according to beer style at top (Pale/Bitter 20-30 Mild 100 Stout 150+)
6) Read output figures and treat water accordingly

[stephenfranks]

Right I am ready to brew!!!

Its been six months setting up the brewery (in spare time) and now I'm confident to get going. I have all the ingredients for a Nethergate Old Growler clone.

I tested up the system last weekend (see viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24422) and had one minor leak that better washer solved, and loose connection to element in boiler. I will post updated pictures of sight tube & switch panel as photos are now old in the thread.

My problem is that I am getting obsessed witht he perfect brew. Packet yeast has now moved onto Brewlab slopes and Campden tablets to Alkalinity tests & Grahams Calculator. It stops me doing the first brew until I am confident it will be the best I can do..

Anyway, water was last piece in jigsaw. Thanks to everyone, especially Graham & Chris.

Stephen.