Does anybody have them? We have a water softner that we have to fill with salt that ourmains runs through. Ive always thought this would be no good fir brewing, and used the hose pipe for my water. I just tested my hose water fir the first time with an alkalinity test, and when worked out have an average of ariund 300 caco3. to be expected for very hard water?
So i thougbt id test my tap water, and ended up with the exact same result...
Theres probably a simply explination, but i cant see it.
Im sure i read using the softened waterwould be no good for brewing, maybe i was wrong?
Water softners..
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Manx Guy
Re: Water softners..
Hi!
I'm no expert on this subkecy as my water is very soft...
But from what I do know that water softeners work on ion exchange thats why you fill them with salt - they exchange Calcium ions for sodium ions.
You dont want all that sodium in your brewing liqour!
Search water treatment on this site it will advise you how to use Calcium reducing solution to soften your water. AFAIK this is some sort of acid that removes calcium...
Hope that helps
Guy
I'm no expert on this subkecy as my water is very soft...
But from what I do know that water softeners work on ion exchange thats why you fill them with salt - they exchange Calcium ions for sodium ions.
You dont want all that sodium in your brewing liqour!
Search water treatment on this site it will advise you how to use Calcium reducing solution to soften your water. AFAIK this is some sort of acid that removes calcium...
Hope that helps
Guy
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guypettigrew
- Even further under the Table
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- Location: Christchurch, Dorset
Re: Water softners..
Depends on which taps your water softener is set up to supply.
It will have been set up to supply some but not all taps. You have to have at least one cold tap not supplied by the softener to give you drinking water. Often softeners only work on the supply for the hot water to minimise any furring up of your boiler, tank and associated pipe work.
They are ion exchangers. They adsorb the "hard water" ions onto tiny beads in the softener. At regular intervals (and usually about 2.00am) salty water is run through the beads to wash out the hard water ions and refresh them ready for more softening. The beads are then rinsed again with clean water to remove most of the salt. Very little salt will end up in the water coming out of the softener, but some will. Whether or not you can use this water for brewing is another matter. To be honest, I've no idea!
Check different taps for hardness, including the hot taps. You should get some interesting readings!
Guy (Different "Guy" from Manxguy above!)
It will have been set up to supply some but not all taps. You have to have at least one cold tap not supplied by the softener to give you drinking water. Often softeners only work on the supply for the hot water to minimise any furring up of your boiler, tank and associated pipe work.
They are ion exchangers. They adsorb the "hard water" ions onto tiny beads in the softener. At regular intervals (and usually about 2.00am) salty water is run through the beads to wash out the hard water ions and refresh them ready for more softening. The beads are then rinsed again with clean water to remove most of the salt. Very little salt will end up in the water coming out of the softener, but some will. Whether or not you can use this water for brewing is another matter. To be honest, I've no idea!
Check different taps for hardness, including the hot taps. You should get some interesting readings!
Guy (Different "Guy" from Manxguy above!)
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Manx Guy
Re: Water softners..
Well this bloke sounds like he knows what he is talking about!
Listen to him!
Listen to him!
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Dr. Dextrin
Re: Water softners..
My understanding (we also have a softener) is that the calcium ions are exchanged for sodium ions, so the calcium (bi)carbonate in the water effectively becomes sodium (bi)carbonate.
So I guess (I'm not a chemist) that if you use a test that measures alkalinity by detecting (bi)carbonate, then you'll still get the same result after the softener's done its work. However, the sodium bicarbonate doesn't precipitate out (unlike calcium) when it's heated, so the water has the same behaviour as soft water as far as furring up your pipes is concerned.
No doubt there'll be three chemists along shortly to put me straight!
So I guess (I'm not a chemist) that if you use a test that measures alkalinity by detecting (bi)carbonate, then you'll still get the same result after the softener's done its work. However, the sodium bicarbonate doesn't precipitate out (unlike calcium) when it's heated, so the water has the same behaviour as soft water as far as furring up your pipes is concerned.
No doubt there'll be three chemists along shortly to put me straight!
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guypettigrew
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- Location: Christchurch, Dorset
Re: Water softners..
I think the calcium ions are adsorbed onto the beads in the softener, therby "softening" the water. This means the water which comes from the softener, and then off to its various destinations, will test less hard than water which bypases the softener.
The salt (sodium ions) is only introduced during the periodic regeneration process. On our softener it's about every 6 days. During regeneration the sodium, in effect, washes the beads clean of the calcium. When we had our softener fitted it was explained by the fitter that the beads "preffered" the sodium to the calcium. Not very chemical, but I got the general idea! A final rinse during the regeneration process then washes the salt off the beads and, hey presto, the softening process can start again.
The fitter also told us the amount of salt in softened water was the same as the amount of salt in milk. Very useful--no idea what it means in terms of using it for brewing.
Guy
The salt (sodium ions) is only introduced during the periodic regeneration process. On our softener it's about every 6 days. During regeneration the sodium, in effect, washes the beads clean of the calcium. When we had our softener fitted it was explained by the fitter that the beads "preffered" the sodium to the calcium. Not very chemical, but I got the general idea! A final rinse during the regeneration process then washes the salt off the beads and, hey presto, the softening process can start again.
The fitter also told us the amount of salt in softened water was the same as the amount of salt in milk. Very useful--no idea what it means in terms of using it for brewing.
Guy
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Cazamodo
Re: Water softners..
Thanks guys, I think ill take samples from a few taps, and the hot + cold and see what I find!
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Gary_P
Re: Water softners..
I think what has been said above looks good and probably the water you tested is coming from your unsoftened tap. In terms of a simple test to confirm which taps are being softened and which are not I have some tablets that were left when we had our softerner fitted, you drop them in a a small tube of water and the colour change tells you whether the water is softened. These are pretty cheap so you could get some of these.
Before using the softened water for beer why don't you try making a cup of tea or something like that with the water from a softened tap. I've never tried it, but spoke to people who have and been told the taste is not good. This might give you an indication of what you would end up with in beer. In terms of salt content this should be extremely small, I have heard the example of being the equivalent salt levels of milk too and think it says this in my softener literature.
Personally I wouldn't use it. I only make kits up but I use Brita filtered water from a jug and this works very well for me , taking the horrible taste out. (It's very laborious to do though !)
Cheers
Gary
Before using the softened water for beer why don't you try making a cup of tea or something like that with the water from a softened tap. I've never tried it, but spoke to people who have and been told the taste is not good. This might give you an indication of what you would end up with in beer. In terms of salt content this should be extremely small, I have heard the example of being the equivalent salt levels of milk too and think it says this in my softener literature.
Personally I wouldn't use it. I only make kits up but I use Brita filtered water from a jug and this works very well for me , taking the horrible taste out. (It's very laborious to do though !)
Cheers
Gary
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stokie_spaceman
- Steady Drinker
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Re: Water softners..
Water from a domestic water softener has had just about all temporary and permanent hardness ions removed. That is all of the calcium and magnesium associated with alkalinity (bicarbonate alkalinty in this case) and sulphate, chloride etc etc. To maintain the ionic balance, the ions are replaced with sodium (i.e. the hardness ions are exchanged with sodium from the cation softener resin. The process does not put salt into the water since salt is sodium chloride. With this type of softening, the alkalinity in the feed water is unaffected. Hence why you measure the alkalinity as the same in both the soft and hard water. Personally, I wouldn't use it for brewing because of the high sodium content and the lack of permanent hardness (such as calcium sulphate , calcium chloride etc) which I'm sure are essential ions in your liqour make up. It's the temperary hardness that is precipitated out when boiling and this is what (typically) we seek to reduce (to various levels) when brewing.
I tend to use a Brita type filter as well. Why? Well, a couple of reasons. The cartridges contains a mixture of activated carbon and an ion exchange resin. The carbon is great for removing free chlorine and funny tastes and odours (although boiling or standing the water overnight will drive off most of the chlorine). The resin is a little different to that in the domestic water softener plumbed into your taps. It is weak acid cation resin in the hydrogen (acid) form. This removes hardness associated with alkalinity. It replaces the hardnes ions with hydrogen ions making the water slightly acidic. The acid conditions convert the bicarbonate alkalinity in your tap water to CO2 which readily gases when heated. Since this type of treatment doesn't affect the sodium concentration in the water, it is better to drink than soft water from a domestic water softener as the sodium concentration is the same as your tap water. Softened water contains a much higher level of sodium.
I haven't done any pH checks of my mash but theoretically, using a Brita type filter would be ideal for pale ales etc as the pale malt doesn't reduce the mash pH like a dark malt does.
The process is finite however, and the resin exhausts. It doesn't happen suddenly. From day one, you will notice a steady rise in pH of the water as the cartridge is used.
Gary is right though. Filtering 30 odd litres though a jug filter is a pain in the doo da!!
Joe
I tend to use a Brita type filter as well. Why? Well, a couple of reasons. The cartridges contains a mixture of activated carbon and an ion exchange resin. The carbon is great for removing free chlorine and funny tastes and odours (although boiling or standing the water overnight will drive off most of the chlorine). The resin is a little different to that in the domestic water softener plumbed into your taps. It is weak acid cation resin in the hydrogen (acid) form. This removes hardness associated with alkalinity. It replaces the hardnes ions with hydrogen ions making the water slightly acidic. The acid conditions convert the bicarbonate alkalinity in your tap water to CO2 which readily gases when heated. Since this type of treatment doesn't affect the sodium concentration in the water, it is better to drink than soft water from a domestic water softener as the sodium concentration is the same as your tap water. Softened water contains a much higher level of sodium.
I haven't done any pH checks of my mash but theoretically, using a Brita type filter would be ideal for pale ales etc as the pale malt doesn't reduce the mash pH like a dark malt does.
The process is finite however, and the resin exhausts. It doesn't happen suddenly. From day one, you will notice a steady rise in pH of the water as the cartridge is used.
Gary is right though. Filtering 30 odd litres though a jug filter is a pain in the doo da!!
Joe