Grahams Calculator . Calcium Chloride or Potassium Chloride

[minesapint]

Greetings all.

I live in a soft water area and have happily followed Dave Lines "The Big Book of Brewing" water treatments for a couple of years, for all of my all grain brews.
So far I have not had a duff brew. Pales, Bitters Brown and Milds, all fine.

He said Potassium Chloride is easier to dispense than Calcium Chloride and so Potassium Chloride is to be preferred.
" Chloride adjustments should ideally consist mainly of Potassium Chloride together with a smaller contribution of common salt".

I know that you should not mess with a thing if it is working OK but, after looking at this site for a while ,I now own a Salifert Kit and can input my water suppliers details quite happily into Grahams water calculator.

QUESTION.
Are Potassium Chloride and Calcium Chloride interchangeable gram for gram in Grahams water Calculator?

A simple answer in laymans terms would be most appreciated.

Cheers all.

[fisherman]

I add my minerals myself and always use calcium chloride flake for chloride additions, It adds extra sweetness and body to the malty taste. A really exellent mineral, In my opinion I dont like the full use of calcium sulphate or epsom they seem to make my beer very bitter. I use grahams calculator set to sweet pale ale and get a great pints of malty bitter.
Good luck

[minesapint]

Hello fisherman
Many thanks for the information.
I think I will have to treat both as similar and try making a brew. See what happens.

I wonder if I have set a real puzzler for the guys who know all there is to know about liqour and mashing chemistry.
They seem to be keeping their heads below the parapet on this one.
Hopefully some will take up the challenge.
Cheers again.

[chastuck]

This is not really an answer as my chemistry is somewhat shaky, but what I do know is that if you use sodium metabisulphite or potassium metabisulphite you have to use different amounts for the same effect. Something to do with molecular weights of the molecules I believe. So presumably the same rationale applies to calcium chloride and potassium chloride.

[orlando]

Is ease of dispense really the only reason to justify it over Calcium Chloride? I don't know, seems a little odd to me. All I can tell you is that is is considered to give saltiness without the sour notes and is probably better for you if you have high blood presssure, oh and too much is a laxative

Potassium is important as a trace element for yeast (I looked that up) but again don't know whether the quantities you are using are good, bad or indifferent.

What is certainly true is that calcium is vital to brewing so just make sure you have enough of that coming from somewhere else.

Hopefully Martin Brungard will spot this thread and give you a more comprehensive answer.

[killer]

Hi chaps,

The answer is no, they are not directly swappable.
Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) is about 64% by weight Chloride. Whereas Potassium Chloride (KCl) is about 48% by weight chloride. - of course that's assuming you have "dry" salts... By that I mean that sometimes the Calcium Chloride we buy actually contains a certain percentage of water even though it is a solid (and the percentage water can cary). As Calcium chloride is often used as a drying agent, it will pick up water if you leave the box open too.

If you want to substitute the values for grahams calculator, simply multiply the recommended Calcium Chloride addition by about 1.35 and add that quantity of KCl. i.e if it calls for 1g Calcium chloride add 1.35g potassium chloride. Of course that's assuming you are using Calcium chloride as the only source of Chloride

Personally I prefer to add Calcium chloride than potassium chloride, as Orlando said - potassium can have laxative effects and isn't great for your health in too high a dose.

Happy Brewing...

[Dave S]

I wonder if I have set a real puzzler for the guys who know all there is to know about liqour and mashing chemistry.
They seem to be keeping their heads below the parapet on this one.
Hopefully some will take up the challenge.
Cheers again.

I think you've thrown down the gauntlet .

[minesapint]

Hello Dave.
I think you are right.
Now I am the one hiding behind the parapet !
Cheers.

[mabrungard]

Potassium is an enigma in brewing. The malt supplies plenty to the wort, yet using a water with high potassium can be problematic. I just had this discussion last week with Palmer and Kaminski as we are getting through the final edits of the upcoming Water book. I feel that potassium is somehow bound in the organic chemistry of the wort, yet AJ DeLange pointed out that K is highly soluble and when performing lab tests for K concentration, there is not a 'digestion' step required to free the K. So its always there, yet the sources and response in the beer are different. As Orlando points out, there are resources that report that having more than a minor amount of K in the water can be laxative. Ultimately, the recommendation is that brewers should avoid K at concentrations greater than 10 ppm.

So, I recommend that calcium chloride is the preferred mineral for chloride additions. Calcium is quite benign in wort (flavorwise) and its also useful in depressing RA. That is a win-win situation. I don't see that benefit from KCl.

[john luc]

An observation I note,about 12 months or so ago Bulmers(magners) cider co here in Ireland launched their pear cider and after a while reports of people drinking it found they had the scutters . The company made changes to their cider and this practice ended. I wonder would someone have added to much Potassium to the pot .

[minesapint]

I have just re read my original post.
It now sounds to me like a letter to gardeners question time on Radio Four, it just needs a "does the panel think" in there . I must get out more often.

Many thanks to all of you that contributed. Some sound advice in there.
Particularly interesting are killers conversions for quantities and martins input.
Thank you martin for keeping it simple for me , I bet you could really go to town on the technical side of things.

I have just bought some food grade Anhydrous Calcium Chloride on ebay.
It says for brewing and cheesemaking.
Also quite prominently on the label it says CAUSES SERIOUS EYE DAMAGE. Keep out of the reach of children. Wear protective gloves etc.
So far none of the additives for my brewing has had such serious warnings on the packaging as this.
Ive never worn gloves and eyeshields whilst dispensing my other ingedients for brewing, is Calcium Chloride as bad as the label portrays ?

Thanks again for all of your thoughts and suggestions.
Cheers all.

[killer]

Hi again,

Calcium chloride itself is not really harmful. I mean - we throw it in beer (and cheese apparently) and it's used as a nutrient sometimes for growing cells and plants.
The "dodgy" part is that it is an anhydrous powder. CaCl2 is hygroscopic - which means it picks up water out of the air if you leave it sitting - in fact if you left it out long enough it would turn into a solution. It is an irritant and If it's a fine powder it is easy to breathe in and if it touches your eyes/ your mouth it will absorb the water (bad for your eyes), may heat up and can burn you a little bit (this is really a worst case scenario).

Having said that - I use Calcium chloride all the time, have spilled it on my hands etc. etc. without problem. So don't worry, just use common sense and don't get it in your eyes.

If you are at all worried, what might be useful would be to make up solution up of a known concentration (1g / 5mL or whatever) and get yourself a half accurate syringe to use to chuck in your mash/ Boiler as you go along, though that's probably unnecessary.

Cheers,

Cillian