Salifert Water spreadsheet sanity check

[Goulders]

You should get enough magnesium from the grist. Leave the salt for your chips!

[DerbyshireNick]

I only have DLS to play with for this weekends stout brew so I will try and best convert the additions calculations (re-done for a stout profile) from the individual additions to one combined.

[DerbyshireNick]

So, if I get in Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Sulphate as I have plenty of Calcium Sulphate (as gypsum) and we are not bothering with Sodium Chloride (leaving it for our chips) I can add as suggested?

[Goulders]

Just get calcium chloride. There will be enough magnesium as I said. The calcium chloride will add chloride and calcium. The gypsum will ad calcium and sulphate. Use the spreadsheet

[Jocky]

Cheers for this Jocky,

Calcium - not reported (assumed 38.6 mg/l based on alkalinity of 96.5 mg/l)
Sodium - 9.375 mg/l
Sulphate - 26.878 mg/l
Chloride - 26.884 mg/l
Carbonate - 57.86 mg/l (seems to populate automagically)

Leaving magnesium blank gives me the result of

Result:
CRS 0.39 ml/l <
Calcium Sulphate (as gypsum) - 205.29 mg/l
Calcium Chloride (dihydrate) - 313.06 mg/l
Magnesium Sulphate (Epsom salts) - 152.14 mg/l
Sodium Chloride (common salt) - 52.43 mg/l

(It calculates Carbonate by subtracting Calcium from Total Alkalinity)

Sticking in your numbers I was trying to determine what to do with DLS based upon your water profile for various styles. I get the following based upon choosing the Stout, Bitter and Dry Pale Ale water profiles:

The right hand column shows how many grams per litre of DLS you'd want to add depending upon which ion you want to target. For DLS use you want these numbers to be somewhat close together. As you can see, with the stout profile if you add 0.145g/l DLS to make up the Sulphate, you'll be a long way off on Chloride. On the other hand if you add 1.8g/litre to make up on the Chloride you'll be a long way over on Sulphate.

Given the approximations we're using all the way so far, I'd look to use something more middle of the road for this time like the bitter profile, but I am only a short way into learning this myself.

[DerbyshireNick]

Cheers Jocky, I really appreciate the time you put into that there. I am very much seeing why DLS is not great. With it being a blend I guess they have to target a specific ratio based on something and this is not a one size fits all it seems.

Goulders, I certainly will be. My water is pretty good for this stout so this weekend I will go with the best fit I can find for the DLS given its known fixed ratio. Ill then be doing things properly, fully calculated and added individually going forward as I go back to my pales.

Part of me is tempted to get the water book and just keep re-reading each chapter until it sticks.

[Aleman]

Part of me is tempted to get the water book and just keep re-reading each chapter until it sticks.

Do you want my copy?? There isn't a lot in there that isn't available on the internet, and it does tend to look at things from a very local perspective, even though they are talking about world beer styles . . . Well an American Take on world beer styles

Of course If you say yes, I'll have to find another book of the appropriate size to stop my table wobbling

[DerbyshireNick]

Of course If you say yes, I'll have to find another book of the appropriate size to stop my table wobbling

Ha ha I am afraid I will be rude and turn the offer down. In the meantime I trotted away and had a look through the amazon reviews...

Ill stick to the plan of just getting a handle on what my numbers are, calculating additions properly and adding things as they are needed (not DLS).

[Jocky]

Cheers Jocky, I really appreciate the time you put into that there. I am very much seeing why DLS is not great. With it being a blend I guess they have to target a specific ratio based on something and this is not a one size fits all it seems.

Goulders, I certainly will be. My water is pretty good for this stout so this weekend I will go with the best fit I can find for the DLS given its known fixed ratio. Ill then be doing things properly, fully calculated and added individually going forward as I go back to my pales.

Part of me is tempted to get the water book and just keep re-reading each chapter until it sticks.

Doh, I've just realised that I uploaded the wrong image!

I had put together a spreadsheet that showed what various DLS additions would do.

Anyway, DLS is alright, but it's a blunt tool compared to using separate salts.

[DerbyshireNick]

I have got a full break down including everything i need to know from the water company now.

DLS for a stout was less then a teaspoon so I just went with it for this brew.

So its actually not looking all that bad in terms of whats needed.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3cQkO ... sp=sharing

[Dave S]

I did a quick scan, as shortly going out. The figure I was looking for is 1ml CRS removing approx. 180ppm/L and your sheet shows that:)

Someone else said this in a recent thread. Can I emphasise that 1 ml CRS Does not remove approx 180ppm/L. It is approx 180mg in total

[Monkeybrew]

I am very much seeing why DLS is not great. With it being a blend I guess they have to target a specific ratio based on something and this is not a one size fits all it seems.

This makes interesting reading and has saved me from asking the question of 'what is in DLS'?

I have been playing around with Graham's calculator for different styles with my water and started to ask the question in my head about DLS. I have already got Gypsum and Epsom Salts, so just need to pick up some Calcium Chloride from my LHBS, as these are the 3 main additions that keep coming up, apart from the odd addition of common salt.

Brupaks advise treating the mash directly with DLS as g/L based on the amount of mash liquor to be used, and then to add the remaining DLS addition to the boil as g/L based on the remaining total liquor to be used. (Hope that makes sense)

So would I apply this method to the different individual mineral salt additions?

Sorry to piggyback onto your thread Nick, but I thought that it was relevant to parts of this discussion

Cheers

MB

[Goulders]

Don't use Epsom salts or salt. There is enough magnesium in your grain. You should only need to use gypsum to add calcium and sulphate, or calcium chloride to add...

Turning to the maths, 1g of CaCl2 adds 272mg/l of Ca and 483mg/l of Cl. 1g of gypsum (CaSO4) adds 232mg/l of Ca and 558mg/l of SO4.


Using Ashbeck water as an example, it has 10mg/l of Ca so to achieve 100mg/l you would need to add 90mg/l. Let's assume you treat 40l of water.

You will want 40x90=3600mg of Ca.
Amount of CaCl2 to add = 3600/272=13.23g

But this would also increase the Cl (13.23*483)/40=159.7 mg/l

You can play about with the ratios for the beer you want and use the same calculation for gypsum. If your water has enough calcium 60-100 ppm, you don't need to add any salts to the mash, just to the copper.

[Jocky]

I am very much seeing why DLS is not great. With it being a blend I guess they have to target a specific ratio based on something and this is not a one size fits all it seems.

This makes interesting reading and has saved me from asking the question of 'what is in DLS'?

I have been playing around with Graham's calculator for different styles with my water and started to ask the question in my head about DLS. I have already got Gypsum and Epsom Salts, so just need to pick up some Calcium Chloride from my LHBS, as these are the 3 main additions that keep coming up, apart from the odd addition of common salt.

I think that DLS is a mix of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride. There might be something else in it, but once you're playing with a water calculator you might as well buy the separate salts.