Sulphuric & Hydrochloric

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timbobist
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Sulphuric & Hydrochloric

Post by timbobist » Wed May 30, 2018 7:14 pm

Hi I have been using phosphoric acid to reduce alkalinity and get my mash ph correct to good effect. I would like to try out using Sulphuric & Hydrochloric acids. Does anyone know where I can buy these products?

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Eric
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Re: Sulphuric & Hydrochloric

Post by Eric » Wed May 30, 2018 9:36 pm

You can get food grade hydrochloric acid here.

I don't know of any supplier of food grade sulphuric acid to homebrewers and there are now restrictions on supply.
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timbobist
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Re: Sulphuric & Hydrochloric

Post by timbobist » Wed May 30, 2018 9:54 pm

Thanks Eric your link looks promising, is sulphuric acid now regulated then? The reason I want to try out these separate acids is to for taste, Phosphoric I find works well in malty beers but in pale ales can sometimes leave a fizzy pop taste. Not necessarily undesirable but I'm after a smoother taste.

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Eric
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Re: Sulphuric & Hydrochloric

Post by Eric » Wed May 30, 2018 11:25 pm

timbobist wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 9:54 pm
Thanks Eric your link looks promising, is sulphuric acid now regulated then? The reason I want to try out these separate acids is to for taste, Phosphoric I find works well in malty beers but in pale ales can sometimes leave a fizzy pop taste. Not necessarily undesirable but I'm after a smoother taste.
If you search for sulphuric acid on the same site you will find what they have to say on the subject. From what I read it seems they may supply 2 molar sulphuric acid, 1ml of which should neutralise about 200mg of alkalinity as cacium carbonate, but it looks a costly option.

Phosphoric acid is a major flavouring ingredient of Coca-Cola, so your findings are probably well based. I have phosphoric in my stock and also find it can add undesirable flavour.

Tonight I've set up for a brew tomorrow using that particular hydrochloric acid. I would advise you dilute it to double the volume when 1ml will then neutralise about 300mg of CaCO3. In that state it doesn't give off gas as it does as delivered and is much easier in use. Hydrochloric acid will improve the fullness of your beers and enhance malt flavours while sulphuric will produce a drier beer enabling the hops to be more dominant. I have food grade sulphuric acid, but use more hydrochloric acid and balance with additions of gypsum for drier, hoppy beers, but to be honest the difference with hops is not as much as is generally suggested. If you stick to pale malt, adjuncts such as torrified or flaked barley/wheat/maize/rice and some invert sugar, you don't need a low chloride and heavily sulphated liquor to produce a hoppy beer.
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Re: Sulphuric & Hydrochloric

Post by Jocky » Thu May 31, 2018 2:41 pm

While it's not just sulphuric acid, CRS is balanced towards sulphate and highly available.

I found personally that with CRS and gypsum I could get the sulphate:chloride ratio up to where I wanted in favour of sulphate, but to do the same for chloride was harder.
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Re: Sulphuric & Hydrochloric

Post by HTH1975 » Thu May 31, 2018 10:50 pm

Just use AMS, it’s food grade and easily available. The dosage calculations are already done for you, in addition to how much chloride and sulphate it adds.

https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/Datasheets/AMS.pdf

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Eric
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Re: Sulphuric & Hydrochloric

Post by Eric » Thu May 31, 2018 11:17 pm

HTH1975 wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 10:50 pm
Just use AMS, it’s food grade and easily available. The dosage calculations are already done for you, in addition to how much chloride and sulphate it adds.

https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/Datasheets/AMS.pdf
If your objective is to make beer, certainly so. If you wish to explore brewing in greater depth, it will limit your learning.
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Re: Sulphuric & Hydrochloric

Post by HTH1975 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:23 pm

Eric wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:17 pm
HTH1975 wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 10:50 pm
Just use AMS, it’s food grade and easily available. The dosage calculations are already done for you, in addition to how much chloride and sulphate it adds.

https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/Datasheets/AMS.pdf
If your objective is to make beer, certainly so. If you wish to explore brewing in greater depth, it will limit your learning.
I don’t see how this would limit learning. You can still read up on things. My main point is that this is food-safe, plus it’s tried and testing in the brewing industry.

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Re: Sulphuric & Hydrochloric

Post by Aleman » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:15 pm

HTH1975 wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:23 pm
Eric wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:17 pm
HTH1975 wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 10:50 pm
Just use AMS, it’s food grade and easily available. The dosage calculations are already done for you, in addition to how much chloride and sulphate it adds.

https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/Datasheets/AMS.pdf
If your objective is to make beer, certainly so. If you wish to explore brewing in greater depth, it will limit your learning.
I don’t see how this would limit learning. You can still read up on things. My main point is that this is food-safe, plus it’s tried and testing in the brewing industry.
If you want to brew with a chloride forward liquor AMS will not allow you to do that. ... It's aimed towards the mass homogenisation of beer flavours rather than developing individual and regional flavours. .. a sort of one size fits nothing in particular approach.

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timbobist
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Re: Sulphuric & Hydrochloric

Post by timbobist » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:24 pm

These are my stats from testing for alkalinity and from my water report.

Alkalinity = 180
Calcium = 116
Magnesium = 8.3
Sodium = 51
Chloride = 84
Sulfate = 118
All measured in ppm
If I used CRS to change my alkalinity do you think it would push my chloride too high? And I can't change the ratio using CRS

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Eric
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Re: Sulphuric & Hydrochloric

Post by Eric » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:49 pm

Dropping alkalinity with CRS to 30ppm would raise sulphate to about 190ppm and chloride to about 137ppm. While that chloride level isn't too high, it is 53ppm higher than it would be using sulphuric, it would produce a fuller and more malty beer that you might be wanting.
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Re: Sulphuric & Hydrochloric

Post by Carnot » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:36 pm

I will defer to Eric and Aleman on the use of HCl and H2SO4. They have more than adequately covered the subject. As of late obtaining sulphuric acid has become more troublesome. eBay has numerous sellers of battery acid which is about 30% strength, more than adequate for our needs. I would not be too concerned about trace contaminants as these days the acid would be pretty much food grade (whatever that is). The days of the lead chamber process are long gone and most sulphuric acid these days is produced to high purity using sulphur from a Claus unit.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MOTORCYCLE-C ... 082:g:tG4A

If you want to spend money and can set up an account Atom Scientific offer some "high purity" sulphuric acids .

https://atomscientific.com/category/chemical/page/5

Personally I doubt if there is much to choose between the battery acid and 25% strength acid in terms of impurities. The main user of sulphuric acid in the food industry is the brewers, and the volumes are small.

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