Old Peculiar - Water profile

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
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Lanky94
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Old Peculiar - Water profile

Post by Lanky94 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:42 pm

I am very partial to this loverly beer and will be making Bitter Teds Peculiar Clone (Thanks Bitter Ted).

What water profile would be best suited to this beer. I live in the USA and its been a while since I have supped one so I cant remember if the hops and malt are balanced. What profile would you guys go for?

Heres the cut and paste from Bitter Teds recipe"

'(23Litres at 1.058, 30 IBU's, 120 EBC's 75% MASH efficiency)
4507g Pale Malt
465g Crystal Malt
132g Roast Barley
67 g Black Malt
Mash for 90 minutes at 65C, then sparge to collect 31 litres, boil for 90
minutes with
42g Fuggles (5% Alpha acid)
12g Challenger (5.3% Alpha Acid)
Adding
541g Brown cane sugar halfway through the boil and
11g Fuggles at switch off allowing to steep for 15 minutes,
Rack and Cool in your favourite way, and then pitch your yeast. I've had
success with 1084 Irish Ale, and Muntons Gold, I think Safale would be a
very good option as well.
If you secondary, then add 50g of Black treacle to the secondary. otherwise
Prime the barrel or bottles with 50 of Treacle.
This version will give you a beer closer to Old Peculier of yester year and
not the travesty that is available in bottles today. The draft version is
much better, as I found out to my cost on an outdoor pursuits weekend in
Yorkshire"

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HTH1975
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Re: Old Peculiar - Water profile

Post by HTH1975 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:19 pm

Living in North Yorkshire only 15 miles away from Theakstons brewery, and having visited the brewery, I’d be very surprised if they brewed the cask and bottled versions differently. Old Peculier is one beer that they still rack into wooden casks, so that could have an influence compared to the bottled beer that will also be force-carbonated and filtered before bottling.

As for your water, we have hard water high in sulphates round here.

Meatymc
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Re: Old Peculiar - Water profile

Post by Meatymc » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:50 am

HTH1975 wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:19 pm
Living in North Yorkshire only 15 miles away from Theakstons brewery, and having visited the brewery, I’d be very surprised if they brewed the cask and bottled versions differently. Old Peculier is one beer that they still rack into wooden casks, so that could have an influence compared to the bottled beer that will also be force-carbonated and filtered before bottling.

As for your water, we have hard water high in sulphates round here.
Similar distance but slightly further North and East. I'll try and remember to dig out the water profile Wallybrew did for me at the beginning of this year. Things will have no doubt changed since then, we're 15 miles away and they're on a more significant limestone base with their water perculating down from the moors but it's better than nowt and will hopefully give you a starting point at least.

I know Black Sheep (Paul Theakstons brewery adjacent to Theakstons) have their own artisan well and borehole but not sure about Theakstsons supply - and of course they may well be treating their brew water in any case.

london_lhr
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Re: Old Peculiar - Water profile

Post by london_lhr » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:44 pm

Hi,
this is the water profile I use for bitters :
Calsium approx 180-220ppm
alkalinity approx 20-60ppm and
chloride:sulphate ratio approx 1:1.3 to 1.6ppm
Most large breweries have their own water source and they will change their water to their needs.
Obviously without letting on what exactly!
The Dengie

Lanky94
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Re: Old Peculiar - Water profile

Post by Lanky94 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:54 am

Thanks gents,

I have made that mistake before and used the water profile from the brewery location......forgetting that they too also probably change the profile. Ill probably stick to my bitter profile (Graham wheelers suits my taste).

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mabrungard
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Re: Old Peculiar - Water profile

Post by mabrungard » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:31 pm

Coal is a strong contributor of sulfate in groundwater and the Yorkshire area is riddled with mines and coal. The admission of high sulfate is accurate. Sulfate doesn't make beer bitter, but it does dry the beer's finish. That would be very welcome in a huge malty beer like Old Peculiar.
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Lanky94
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Re: Old Peculiar - Water profile

Post by Lanky94 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:44 pm

[quote=mabrungard post_id=836885 time=1536755491 user_id=11602]
Coal is a strong contributor of sulfate in groundwater and the Yorkshire area is riddled with mines and coal. The admission of high sulfate is accurate. Sulfate doesn't make beer bitter, but it does dry the beer's finish. That would be very welcome in a huge malty beer like Old Peculiar.
[/quote]

So a 2 Sulphate to 1 Chloride would be spot on?

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Eric
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Re: Old Peculiar - Water profile

Post by Eric » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:26 pm

Lanky94 wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:44 pm
mabrungard wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:31 pm
Coal is a strong contributor of sulfate in groundwater and the Yorkshire area is riddled with mines and coal. The admission of high sulfate is accurate. Sulfate doesn't make beer bitter, but it does dry the beer's finish. That would be very welcome in a huge malty beer like Old Peculiar.
So a 2 Sulphate to 1 Chloride would be spot on?
I wouldn't be too sure about that. Masham sits on glacial till, apart from alluvial deposits down and alongside the River Ure. The groundrock beneath is millstone grit with some limestone. I've never heard of a well at Theakston's and in any case wouldn't think their water would be vastly different to mains water which is moderately hard with something like 50ppm calcium and doubt it would contain a significant quantity of either sulphate or chloride.

The northern extremity of the Yorkshires coalfields is about 35 miles south of Masham and to the north the Durham coalfiels start about 30 mile distant. Of all the fame and valuable resources in and around Masham, mining coal isn't listed. Even if it was those mines would be pumped dry as they are here in Durham, stopping toxic matter contaminating drinking water. It might seem that is not usual in America. However, there are vast quantities of gypsum east of Masham. The downside is that while Ripon (less than 10 miles downstream) has a major problem keeping buildings built on gypsum deposits above ground, the groundwater which becomes rich in sulphate flows from from west to east. That north-south belt of rock enables Tadcaster to produce world famous beers in vast quantities, but sadly doesn't do the same for Masham.

While it is over 190 years since Theakston's started brewing, fifty years ago it supplied only 22 tied housed and just another handful of free trade houses to provide turnover little more than £10K per month. When one of the brothers then running the business died and the other retired, younger family members took control to substantially increase output with sales to the free trade. They then aquired the Carlisle State brewery when the Tory government closed and sold it and there they brewed their Bitter and other things. The result wasn't good for Theakston's causing them to fall into the hands of Matthew Brown. In turn they were taken over by Scottish and Newcastle and Theakston's Bitter was then brewed in Newcastle.

It was said Theakston's head brewer spent time on Newcastle's test plant improving those beers and my opinion was they were much better than when made at Masham the sixties. As for Old Perculier, while not knowing, taking a stab I would try 150 calcium, 30 sodium, 100 sulphate, 200 chloride and 50ppm alkalinity as I think that beer is everything but dry.
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Lanky94
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Re: Old Peculiar - Water profile

Post by Lanky94 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:36 pm

Eric.
Many thanks for your time in providing such an interesting read. Your history and knowledge of the geology of the local area is commendable. I will try your suggested profile.

wezzel01
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Re: Old Peculiar - Water profile

Post by wezzel01 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:53 pm

Lanky94 wrote:Eric.
Many thanks for your time in providing such an interesting read. Your history and knowledge of the geology of the local area is commendable. I will try your suggested profile.
Yes, great post as always Eric.
You’re a mine if information.


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