New member of Aquaholics Anonymous

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
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OldN1ck
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New member of Aquaholics Anonymous

Post by OldN1ck » Wed Jun 04, 2025 8:34 pm

Hey folks,
Just signed-up and nice chaps up in the Introductions lobby have suggested I should come along to my first meeting to stand up and admit my water properties :)

I've been collecting data from Severn Trent for ~4 years now, plus API kit KH & GH readings each brewday:
STW water data summary.jpg
STW water data summary.jpg (237.13 KiB) Viewed 355 times
For each brew I generate a water profile estimate by:
  • Calcium & Magnesium based on GH result ratio assumption
  • Bicarbonate from KH result
  • Sulphate, Chloride, Nitrate and Sodium from interpolation between their overall average min > max value, based on that day's GH reading position between my min > max recorded figures
On 10th Jan this year (as I was having a go at "come up with a beer recipe that will just work with water straight from the tap") I also sent a sample to Murphy & Sons for an analysis report:
Murphy and Son report.jpg
Murphy and Son report.jpg (138.95 KiB) Viewed 355 times
And here's a comparison of how my estimate for that water compared to the M&S results:
My 10Jan water estimate vs Murphy report.jpg
My 10Jan water estimate vs Murphy report.jpg (130.19 KiB) Viewed 356 times
Let me know what you think..?
Pondering the wisdom of poking my head above the parapet to discuss water chemistry and mash pH

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MashBag
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Re: New member of Aquaholics Anonymous

Post by MashBag » Thu Jun 05, 2025 3:09 pm

This does strike me as a profile that could benefit from an AMS & DWB solution.

Have you tried any corrections yet?
Did Murphy's make any recommendations?

I think pH is potentially acting as une 'erring rouge here. If you get the water profile right, the pH should follow.

Grahams calculator is very good. I also have a pdf on the subject of water profiles for different beer styles. What are brewing? Ale, lager, stout?

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OldN1ck
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Re: New member of Aquaholics Anonymous

Post by OldN1ck » Thu Jun 05, 2025 4:52 pm

MashBag wrote:
Thu Jun 05, 2025 3:09 pm
Have you tried any corrections yet?
Indeed... AMS is my tipple of choice and I've switched from using DWB to separate CaSO4 or CaCl2, to have more control over where my final beer profile might be heading (and avoid adding Na unless I did want to). Just using them to get mash pH into the 5.2-5.6 ballpark, ideally paler beers a touch lower and darker beers a touch higher in that range. Sample taken 10 mins before the end of 60 min mash, cooled to 20degC and measured with calibrated Apera PH60.

That has worked for me from English Pale Ale up through Amber, Ruby & Dunkel; then I've found that I usually need a little NaHCO3 for Porters & Stouts. I was still struggling to get mash pH down for lower colour West Coast and Hazy Pales until I added Lactic Acid to my toolkit.

I've actually just bottled a West Coast Pale this morning which was the first of these pale brews I've done where I tested my brewday water, calculated adjustments, made strike water, sparge water and mash additions in one hit... and everything worked out just fine. Although as this was my 7th iteration of the brew there has been a significant element of learning and tuning to get to this point.
Pondering the wisdom of poking my head above the parapet to discuss water chemistry and mash pH

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Eric
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Re: New member of Aquaholics Anonymous

Post by Eric » Thu Jun 05, 2025 5:05 pm

Well done, a lot of work there.

Best wishes for producing a beer mash pH predictor. I never intended going that far due to variation in malts by country and maltster and similar for adjuncts, never mind variations in crush and liquor to grist ratios and others I've not even considered. Frankly, by the time you've done a handful of brews of preferred recipes using your supply water, in your gear, by your methods, it's likely you can reasonably predict in your head what needs doing to get a suitable pH. Attempting to derive an algorithm converting your predictions for brewers using different equipment, other brewing liquor with estimated ion content for a single pot or BIAB or 3V and RIMS or HERMS is vastly more complicated.

My water varies substantially, and some years since several samples taken over a period that covered the full range of anticipated variation were analysed by Wallybrew. Samples of those waters were kept to recalibrated a TDS meter after analysis.

Each ion was plotted against Total Dissolved Solids as found in the analyses in Excel, passing through the origin of the graph as zero TDS means zero ion content. Excel's Chart Function will derive a mathematical function for plotted curves, and fed back into Excel enables determination of individual ion content from a single reading of the calibrated TDS meter in that water. This eliminates the initial GH and KH tests, but a KH test is taken after treatment and confirms all to be well. A Salifert kit now lasts me 5 years and more.

My water is from a single source, those analyses proved that and variation in mineral content found to be lower in periods of heavy rain and higher in drought. Your variation might be due to a change in the source and what I do might not help. If you name a major town near you, I might have data on historical mineral content to compare with your findings.

My system is mostly 3V, even when my single pot system is put to use. My water source usually contains similar quantity of sulphate, but all other major ions are higher, so after suitable alkalinity reduction, it is possible mash without adding salts without an excessively high pH. Salts are added to achieve a desired sulphate to chloride ratio as well as pH, which most commonly have a total weight of 10g of gypsum and/or Calcium Chloride Flake. By measuring mash pH after conversion is well underway, half and hour plus for British malts, some of the calcium salts can be added if necessary, usually the case, and the rest added to the boiler during the sparge.

With fly sparging, as the buffering properties of the sugars reduce by being transferred to the wort in the boiler, I will acid to the sparge liquor which starts at the same level as mash liquor, to stop pH rising above pH 5.6 or so.

This is a picture my Excel calculator. All inputs are entered in column B.
BitterProfile.jpg
BitterProfile.jpg (171.73 KiB) Viewed 301 times
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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PeeBee
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Re: New member of Aquaholics Anonymous

Post by PeeBee » Fri Jun 06, 2025 9:57 am

Wowie,wowie! I've got to play with this! My spreadsheet hasn't been aired much since someone decided to mention it on The Home Brew Forum to bad-mouth it (totally unrelated to what the thread was about) and I was kicked off the forum for complaining to the Administrator/Mods about it!

Presenting ... The "Defuddler"! (Arrrrrg! ... save us ...)

Well, it's got stuff in it "OldN1ck" might consider mining? (The complete spreadsheet is downloadable from my "signature" below ... the "development" version is safe, and I'd recommend that:).
.
Screenshot 2025-06-06 091930.jpg
Screenshot 2025-06-06 091930.jpg (126.32 KiB) Viewed 267 times
.
My "alkalinity" doesn't entirely agree (128mg/L as CaCO3), but mine is right, there's is wrong :D ***

"Hardness" (in the depths of my spreadsheet, 'cos it's no use to brewing beer) is also calculated and does agree with Murphy's. But the sums in that case are very straight-forward.

[EDIT: *** 142 minus 128, or 14ppm, out of (avg,) 135ppm. Does it matter? Does the "alkalinity" measurement stay that constant? And remember "as CaCO3" carries 40% "baggage" (Ca) so it's 8ppm (and a bit) of "carbonate" alkalinity (or an 8mg/L descrepancy ... if assuming the measurements taken that day were "average"; or 80mg of carbonate ions in ten litres). Is that enough to make any difference? The "rabbithole" just gets bigger, and bigger. You'll soon be able to chuck a kitchen-sink down it. Please note: I'm questioning "does it matter", not making a judgement one way or t'other.]
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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