Reducing alkalinity using acid.

[Dave S]

Yep, but impossible to bring the pH down without a massive increase in the calcium

Try putting phosphoric acid in the formula at 85%, rather than CRS, and then play with the amount in the Water Adjustment tab (at the bottom of the salts column).

Yeah, what he said!

[Goulders]

Noted! Forgot that

[Goulders]

Got it to work so thanks to you you Guys for your help, particularly WallyBrew for the revised figures. Just need to find time for brewing now...

[mabrungard]

Unfortunately, Bru'n Water does not prescribe any mashing water additions automatically. That is because brewers may not have all the minerals that the program lists as possible additions. And as you can imagine, there is more than one way to reach a water profile goal with that array of minerals. So, a little trial and error with additions of the minerals and acids you have on hand is a necessary duty.

Given all that, it is apparent that Goulders should probably enlist an acid to neutralize that alkalinity to achieve an acceptable mash pH. Once you get the hang of the program, it is quite easy to manipulate and play with.

Enjoy!

[orlando]

Got it to work so thanks to you you Guys for your help, particularly WallyBrew for the revised figures. Just need to find time for brewing now...

Using Phosphoric acid is the route I took to solve this problem (we have similar alkalinity issues). I recommend here to obtain food grade quality. If you follow the thread from the beginning you will come across the other recommendations for measuring and dispensing.

[Goulders]

Cheers Orlando. I got CRS to do ok but may go Phosphoric in the future.

Probably going to get a brew on today, so will see how it goes. Wasn't sure of the strength of CRS though so have assumed 85%

[orlando]

Cheers Orlando. I got CRS to do ok but may go Phosphoric in the future.

Probably going to get a brew on today, so will see how it goes. Wasn't sure of the strength of CRS though so have assumed 85%

The problem with CRS is that it uses salts to drive the pH down and that affects the flavour profile and needs to be taken into account. I wasn't happy with either its ability to reduce alkalinity or what it was doing to the flavour of the beer. I moved to phosphoric as it was the most neutral acid and meant I could use individual salts without worrying about "hidden salts". Do you have a good pH meter? It would be interesting to know how effective you find using CRS and the Brun water calculator.

[Dave S]

Got it to work so thanks to you you Guys for your help, particularly WallyBrew for the revised figures. Just need to find time for brewing now...

Using Phosphoric acid is the route I took to solve this problem (we have similar alkalinity issues). I recommend here to obtain food grade quality. If you follow the thread from the beginning you will come across the other recommendations for measuring and dispensing.

Brew UK sell BruPak's 75% phosphoric acid, which is what I'm using to good effect. When it's finished I might go with Orlando's source though.

[WallyBrew]

Cheers Orlando. I got CRS to do ok but may go Phosphoric in the future.

Probably going to get a brew on today, so will see how it goes. Wasn't sure of the strength of CRS though so have assumed 85%

CRS is approximately 3.61 normal (thats the N on the drop down list)

EDIT should be 3.66 not 3.61

[hommebru]

Great thread guys, the more I read, the more I realise how little I actually know.
Keep up the good work!

Could anyone with an eye for water profiles tell me what my water report numbers are like/what beers it suits?
I'm from the west midlands and my numbers are:

Alkalinity - as CaCO3 - 120mg/l
Calcium - Ca - 78mg/l
Sodium - Mg - 6.6 mg/l
Sodium - Na - 9.63 mg/l
Carbonate - CO3 - 71.95
Sulphate - SO4 - 23.76mg/l
Chloride - Cl - 12.725 mg/l

Thanks again.

[WallyBrew]

....
I'm from the west midlands and my numbers are:

Alkalinity - as CaCO3 - 120mg/l
Calcium - Ca - 78mg/l
Sodium - Mg - 6.6 mg/l
Sodium - Na - 9.63 mg/l
Carbonate - CO3 - 71.95
Sulphate - SO4 - 23.76mg/l
Chloride - Cl - 12.725 mg/l

I don't think you can rely on those figures as it's not balanced.

The sum of the cations - anions expressed as total alkalinity gives 200mg/l

Nothing like the figure you have there.

The one anion missing is nitrate and you would need 100mg/l of that (exceedingly unlikely) for it all to balance and give you 120mg/l of alkalinity

[sllimeel]

Wasn't sure of the strength of CRS though so have assumed 85%

I read somehere in the calculator that when you select the acid type as CRS the strength is preset and no acid strength % adjustment effects it!

I just brewed my first beer using the spreadsheet and i am kegging today. I noticed that my fermentation was finished in 5 days instead of the 7-10 days of old! I used CRS and water additions to reach my ph.

What over all change have any noticed since using this spread sheet?

[orlando]

What over all change have any noticed since using this spread sheet?

Quite a lot. The clarity of the beer has improved the hop usage is a lot more efficient, so I've had to reduce my typical IBU target. Head retention and lacing is significantly better. My beer just seems to be a little more balanced and I don't think that is just down to recipe decisions. Not too surprising that getting the water right improves your beer, it makes up the largest component.

[mabrungard]

The problem with CRS is that it uses salts to drive the pH down and that affects the flavour profile and needs to be taken into account.

Its not that those salts drive down the pH, its that the anions associated with the acids (Cl and SO4) can quickly overwhelm the beer flavor. This is especially true when the brewer's water already has elevated Cl and/or SO4 concentrations, or a lot of CRS has to be added to neutralize the water's alkalinity. Those ions are welcome in some beer styles, but not all. CRS is not ideal for all brewing use.

As pointed out above, selecting CRS in the Bru'n Water acid selection disables the 'strength' setting. CRS is assumed to have the strength and ion contributions as described by the manufacturer.

[orlando]

My apologies I meant alkalinity, sorry to mislead.