Water Analysis at Murphy and sons

[fisherman]

Hi Mark,
Your DWB works out at 0.64 per litre. So will you put 0.64 grms per litre in the dry goods for your mash & the the rest in the boil.

[Blackaddler]

Hi Mark,
Your DWB works out at 0.64 per litre. So will you put 0.64 grms per litre in the dry goods for your mash & the the rest in the boil.

Do they say what type of beer that's for?

When I ran out of DWB, I brewed without it, and my dark beers don't seem to be any different. I've not bothered since.

[mark]

I have been discussing pale beers with them.
Still not got the full report through.....so I'll post up again once I have it and have had a chance to interpret it.

[mark]

Okay, so my water report arrived.
The chloride, sulphate, calcium and magnesium are all pretty much what I expected from reading my water board report.
The alkalinity has thrown me a big curve ball though.....I'm going to need to speak to Murphys to clarify this and probably send another sample in for analysis (keeping a duplicate sample this time though ).

Murphys test my alkalinity at 60ppm CaCO3.
They also give me a result for Carbonate as CO3 - 36ppm, and total hardness of 240ppm.

The CaCO3 result is way lower than what I normally test with a Salifert kit.
I tested 5 samples of water last night using 2 different Salifert kits - my results were within a point of each other and gave me a value of 154ppm CaCO3. This is a little higher than usual......looking back in my notes the average from previous tests is around 130, with a range of 109-154.

This is a huge difference and if Murphys are correct then I've been using way too much CRS/AMS.
Does anyone know if total hardness and alkalinity are related and could overly hard water give any problems with Salifert testing??

I'm going to speak again to Murphys this morning and I'll post up anything relevant that comes out.
It might be useful if other brewers are doing the same thing.....I'm worried that I may have found some kind of flaw in the Salifert procedure I've been following.

[boingy]

I found the salifert test to be quite vague. The end point just was not obvious to me so I got quite a variation each time. I did the test a few times on the same sample and the average value was about 20% higher than the Murphy's results (also on the same sample). TBH, that's close enough for me. I plan to re-test with the salifert every month or so to see whether there is much seasonal variation in the value but I predict I'll get bored of doing the test after a few months. My paler beers have noticeably improved as a result of following the Murphy recommendations.

Does anyone know the make up of DWB (DLS)? It would be useful to be able to use it for other styles.

[mark]

The CBA has a factsheet that I've found quite helpful - here: http://www.craf tbrewing.org.uk/bc/factsheets/BC0-1_Water.pdf
There is a table that shows you the effect of the DWB addition for particular addition rates and brewlengths.
I know what you mean about the end point though boingy......but after overshooting the first few tests, I think I've got that bit now

I spoke to Murphys again this morning. They've been very helpful tbh and the lab manager inparticular is a good guy
I am going to get another sample to them for testing, just as a check really and Murphys are also going to test a Salifert kit against their test method and compare any variation.

What I can't seem to get my head around is that Murphys give a total hardness of 240ppm, with Alkalinity CaCO3 60ppm, carbonate CO3 36ppm and magnesium at 0.96.
I thought that it was calcium and magnesium salts that gave the hardness.....but the individual figures there do not equate to total hardness of 240ppm.

Maybe it is something to do with temporary and permanent hardness?? Need to do some reading I think.

[mark]

Just to add. I've got a day off tomorrow, so I'm hoping to get a brew on.
If I do, I'm going to go with Murphys recommended treatment and see what the result is.

[Aleman]

The salifert test is pretty close to what I get when I titrate it to a specific pH using other methods.

Total hardness is related the the amount of Calcium and Magnesium ions in the sample . . .but is expressed as if all the 'hardness' was derived from Calcium carbonate (Stupid way of expressing it IMO) . . .obviously if you have a lot of other anions in you water these will also have been derived in some measure from calcium salts (In some wells in Burton for example it would mostly be derived from calcium sulphate). Which means that you cannot just say Total Hardness = Calcium + Magnesium

I query the Murphy's figures

[WallyBrew]

You do not give the calcium figure but from the figures you have supplied it should be about 94. If this is not so then the total hardness is incorrect and everything below can be ignored

You also do not give the sulphate figure. Ignoring the chloride figure because this usually equates to the sum of sodium and potassium then if the sulphate figure you have been given is around 150 -170 then the alkalinity is probably correct.

If it is around 60 - 75 then your latest alkalinity is more likely to be correct.

In any case - test your water with the salifert kit. Treat to desired alkalinity with CRS and retest. If your salifert kit was as far out as suggested by the analysis then the second result would be well off the mark and probably be acid. If it agrees with what you planned then trust the salifert kit. (assuming your CRS is O.K.)

[mark]

Thanks Aleman.
Hi Wally, thanks for your input.

Calcium is given as 94.4 ppm
Sulphate is 12.35 ppm

I'll do some more testing tonight, as I am going to prepare my liqour for tomorrows brewday.

Thanks again

[mark]

Confusion reigns..........can CRS/AMS go off or become ineffective?

I had drawn 65 litres of liquor on Saturday night with the intention of brewing on Sunday.
I drew a sample and tested it with Salifert at 154ppm CaCO3 (same as Wednesday night testing); dosed the liquor with CRS to reduce this to 25ppm and added 1 crushed campden.
In the end I didn't brew until yesterday and while doing the tests on my tap water on Wednesday night I decided to check the pre-prepared liquor to see if the AMS has indeed brought the CaCO3 down to less than 25ppm.

The test came out exactly the same at 154ppm CaCO3 !!
My immediate thought was that I must have forgotten to dose the AMS, so I did my sums again and dosed the liquor.
Tested it again.........still reading 154ppm WTF?

I'm sure I had put in the AMS on Saturday....so this 65 litres of liquor has had two doses of AMS and the Salifert kit gives me exactly the same reading.
The only conclusion I can come to is that the batch of AMS I've been using is rubbish?? It would certainly explain a few things from my last few months brewing.

One thing I have learnt.......never assume anything. I always assumed that the AMS/CRS I bought would simply do the job providing my maths was okay.
I will be testing my liquor post CRS/AMS addition from now on.

For my brew, I ended up using a 50:50 mix of tap water and Aqua Pura that I'd been saving for making a pilsner with.

More to come on this I guess.

[Aleman]

Well if you use the Salifert Indicator in say 10ml of liquor (three or 4 drops), and then add some drops of CRS/AMS it should change colour pretty much immediately, at least that will tell you if the AMS is OK . . .Not that it 'weakens' with age. . . .Try the test using Vinegar as well should indicate if the problem is with the AMS or the test kit going out of date and having strange issues

Puzzling

[mark]

I'll do that tonight Aleman.

[mark]

I've just run a test. 4ml tap water with 2 drops of indicator from the Salifert kit. To this I added 1ml of AMS, the colour did not budge
I added another 1ml AMS, still no change

I think I can safely say the AMS is the problem; I am not a happy boy
Firstly I'm angry with myself; because I'd become complacent in my routine and have not been bothering testing the liquor after dosing with AMS.
I'm also a little cheesed with the supplier if I'm honest.......I will add to that - that may not be fair on the supplier as I don't know how long AMS keeps for. The product was bought around 4-5 months ago I guess.

The CRS malfunction would explain a few clarity and taste issues I've been getting; so I will take the positive out of it as well I suppose.

ETA - the vinegar test was good....turned pink in 4 drops.

[jubby]

Okay, so my water report arrived.
The chloride, sulphate, calcium and magnesium are all pretty much what I expected from reading my water board report.
The alkalinity has thrown me a big curve ball though.....I'm going to need to speak to Murphys to clarify this and probably send another sample in for analysis (keeping a duplicate sample this time though ).

Murphys test my alkalinity at 60ppm CaCO3.
They also give me a result for Carbonate as CO3 - 36ppm, and total hardness of 240ppm.

The CaCO3 result is way lower than what I normally test with a Salifert kit.
I tested 5 samples of water last night using 2 different Salifert kits - my results were within a point of each other and gave me a value of 154ppm CaCO3. This is a little higher than usual......looking back in my notes the average from previous tests is around 130, with a range of 109-154.

This is a huge difference and if Murphys are correct then I've been using way too much CRS/AMS.
Does anyone know if total hardness and alkalinity are related and could overly hard water give any problems with Salifert testing??

I'm going to speak again to Murphys this morning and I'll post up anything relevant that comes out.
It might be useful if other brewers are doing the same thing.....I'm worried that I may have found some kind of flaw in the Salifert procedure I've been following.

I have a similar problem mark. The Murphys report is near identical to all of my water companies stats except for alkalinity. I test for alkalinity using one of Daabs methyl orange kits about every 3 months and the result is always the same at 234mg/l CaC03. My water company have said that the alkalinity (not hardness) is 228mg/l CaC03 which is fairly close to my results. Murphys say that my alkalinity is 126mg/l CaC03! I emailed Murphys and am waiting for their reply.