Sulphuric Acid v CRS

[mabrungard]

Orlando, I agree that the program is not truly intuitive and appears daunting at first glance. But after you work with it for a few minutes and have your water profile properly entered, its pretty easy to use. Its just that most people look at it for a few minutes, see that it has a lot of things to enter and review, and throw up their hands. Brewing water chemistry is not an easy subject and it can't be distilled down to a quick and easy solution. Graham's calculator provides some guidance to brewers, but it doesn't resolve the question "is it the right thing to do?". I suggest that Bru'n Water moves the brewer a step or two closer to answering that question.

Gordon is a very talented beer judge and quite a capable brewer, but don't elevate his pedestal too far. He won the AHA's Ninkasi award three times largely because of his Mead making results and not beer making. He is good and he wrote his book to help brewers develop the skills he has, but he is not a brewing god. I appreciate him acknowledging me in his book, but we don't see fully eye to eye on water issues. We agree that less mineralization in brewing water is a good thing for beer quality and flavor. But, he could make some beers better if he understood how to use his local tap water instead of all RO water. That is the message that I'm trying to convey through Bru'n Water and the Water Knowledge website.

Enjoy!

[barneey]

For me since I`ve been using the Bry`n Water program (just in theory at the moment - still wating for the acid to arrive) its given me a great deal more knowledge on what effect each type of mineral / acid addition does to the final water profile.

First time I`ve actually started understanding what is happening + the "Brewing Network" podcasts (the 4 water series ones) now make a lot more sence.

As with most things beer related, its going to be try, try and try again with the same recipe to get the taste right for my palete.

B.T.W. Martin have you ever considered teaming up with Beer Smith to intergrate your program in their software?

[barneey]

Just spent an hour this afternoon diluting the sulphuric acid I have with distilled water, according to the calculator I used the dilution was 900ml of distilled water to 125ml of 98% sulphuric acid to give a final solution of 20%, can anyone please double check the dilution calculation.

Cheers

[mabrungard]

If I read it correctly, that would make a 11.95% solution.

The formula is: M1 x V1 = M2 xV2

M1 = 98%
M2 = 20%

Say you want to end up with 1 liter of diluted acid, then V2 = 1L

Therefore the answer is: (1L x 20%)/98% = 0.204L of the 98% acid

Add that to: 1L - .204L = 0.796L of distilled water to create the 1L final volume of 20% acid.

[orlando]

I still don't understand the reasons behind using sulphuric acid vs phosphoric acid. Also I don't understand why you are diluting the acid in this way, is it because you want to use it in very small quantities of water and it is therefore too strong to measure accurately into a small volume?

[barneey]

Hi Mate,

Using Sulphuric acid will reduce the alkalinity but will also add sulphate to the minerals, using phosphoric will not add any additional sulphate.

You can add sulphate using either the Gypsum route (but calcium minerals are also added with gypsum) or the Epsom Salt route (but this will also add Magnesium).

Example 1 ) Just say I had enough of every type of mineral in my high alkaline water but was lacking in Sulphate and wanted to reduce the alkalinity and add sulphate, would you use Phosphoric or Sulphuric?

I could use Phosphoric but how would I add extra Sulphate? Gypsom or Epsom? both of which will add additional salts I dont want. So I would use Sulphuric.

Or example 2. if I had enough minerals full stop but wanted to reduce the alkalinity, would you use Phosphoric or Sulphuric?

I could use Sulphuric , but that will add minerals I dont want, so phosphuric acid would be better

As for dilution the calculator allows for % adjustment, it just means on brew day I wont burn my hands with a 98% solution (far better to drop 12% on your skin rather than 98%)

I hope this helps .

Cheers

Clive

[orlando]

Excellent, thanks Barneey.

[WallyBrew]

............I used the dilution was 900ml of distilled water to 125ml of 98% sulphuric acid to give a final solution of 20%, can anyone please double check the dilution calculation.

Depends how you are defining %

You have 3 choices
1. mass per unit mass - abbreviated as m/m and 20% would be 20g/100g
2. volume per unit volume - abbreviated as VOL/VOL and 20% would be 20mL/100mL
3. mass per unit volume - abbreviated as m/VOL and 20% would be 20g/100mL
VOL is sometimes abbreviated further to just V

What you have described would appear to be number 1.

What Martin has described is an approximation to number 2 as it does not take account of the contraction in volume that will occur when sulphuric acid is added to water so it will be slightly stronger.

If you were to go for number 3 you could dilute the acid such that you get 196 grams of sulphuric acid in 1 litre. This would be a 2 molar solution and each 1ml would neutralise 200mg of calcium carbonate.

To do this buy one litre of wine and drink contents wash bottle and leave to dry while you sleep off the effects of the wine. Place bottle on scales and weigh in 998g of water. This is the approximate weight of one litre of water at 20C. Mark bottle at base of meniscus and then empty bottle but do not bother to allow to dry. This mark should hopefully be in a similar place to the original fill height.

Safety glasses and gloves are the minimum protective equipment to carry out the following:-

Weigh out 196/0.98 = 200g of acid. Put about 600mL of distilled water into one of your borosilicate flasks and slowly add small portions of the acid into the flask whilst swirling. Do not add it all at once as the heat generated could be sufficient to cause rapid boiling of the contents which may cause it to erupt out of the flask. Cool under running water after each addition. Rinse the last part of the acid in with about 100ml of water. It will be relatively safe to add the water to the acid that is left as the quantity of acid to the quantity of water will be small.

When cool quantitatively transfer to the wine bottle and make to the mark with distilled water. Shake well and finally for safety transfer it to a polythene or polypropylene bottle.

How close this ends up to 2M is dependent on whether the acid is 98% as concentrated sulphuric acid readily absorbs water.

[orlando]

............I used the dilution was 900ml of distilled water to 125ml of 98% sulphuric acid to give a final solution of 20%, can anyone please double check the dilution calculation.

Depends how you are defining %

You have 3 choices
1. mass per unit mass - abbreviated as m/m and 20% would be 20g/100g
2. volume per unit volume - abbreviated as VOL/VOL and 20% would be 20mL/100mL
3. mass per unit volume - abbreviated as m/VOL and 20% would be 20g/100mL
VOL is sometimes abbreviated further to just V

What you have described would appear to be number 1.

What Martin has described is an approximation to number 2 as it does not take account of the contraction in volume that will occur when sulphuric acid is added to water so it will be slightly stronger.

If you were to go for number 3 you could dilute the acid such that you get 196 grams of sulphuric acid in 1 litre. This would be a 2 molar solution and each 1ml would neutralise 200mg of calcium carbonate.

To do this buy one litre of wine and drink contents wash bottle and leave to dry while you sleep off the effects of the wine. Place bottle on scales and weigh in 998g of water. This is the approximate weight of one litre of water at 20C. Mark bottle at base of meniscus and then empty bottle but do not bother to allow to dry. This mark should hopefully be in a similar place to the original fill height.

Safety glasses and gloves are the minimum protective equipment to carry out the following:-

Weigh out 196/0.98 = 200g of acid. Put about 600mL of distilled water into one of your borosilicate flasks and slowly add small portions of the acid into the flask whilst swirling. Do not add it all at once as the heat generated could be sufficient to cause rapid boiling of the contents which may cause it to erupt out of the flask. Cool under running water after each addition. Rinse the last part of the acid in with about 100ml of water. It will be relatively safe to add the water to the acid that is left as the quantity of acid to the quantity of water will be small.

When cool quantitatively transfer to the wine bottle and make to the mark with distilled water. Shake well and finally for safety transfer it to a polythene or polypropylene bottle.

How close this ends up to 2M is dependent on whether the acid is 98% as concentrated sulphuric acid readily absorbs water.

Would it be necessary to take the same approach with a 75% concentration of phosphoric acid?

[Aleman]

Would it be necessary to take the same approach with a 75% concentration of phosphoric acid?

YES! ALWAYS Add Acid to water Never the other way round regardless of the acids or strength you are using.

Ok, now for some acids and some concentrations that is plainly nonsense . . . HOWEVER it is just good practice, and a good habit to get into so that when you do find yourself working with conc acids you do it as a matter of course.

[barneey]

The calculator I was using came from this site http://forum.caswellplating.com/anodizi ... lator.html


Thanks for the replies I digest a little later on

Cheers

[nigelsch]

Just scanning the post, so I may have missed it. But one point that is not mentioned between the two acids, is
that p.acid reduces the calcium while s.acid does not; for some profile's this may be important.

For my bitter brews, I now use s.acid only and no other additions. But all our water is different, my alk is
over 300!

[jmc]

By the way, any brewers contemplating the use of these strong acids such as hydrochloric or sulfuric, please be sure to purchase REAGENT Grade chemicals. In the US, the American Chemical Society (ACS) grades the Reagent grade as their most pure. This is still NOT a food-grade product that has been certified as free of hazardous impurities, but its as good as you are going to get. I wouldn't be surprised if CRS is made from reagent grade acids and not food-grade acids. I assume there is an equivalent Euro designation to ACS. Do seek it out.

Good point its worth closely looking at the spec sheet for any the acid you buy.
The one barneey chose had 1ppm Arsenic.
US maximum contaminant level in drinking water is 0.010 ppm, but at dilution level barneey's using that should be OK.

[barneey]

Thanks for the heads up JMC, also following on from Martins notes relating to acid, I fully intend to do abit more reading up on sulphuric acid before it goes anywhere near the brewing water.

For reference the one I actually got from ebay wasnt from the seller I listed on the first page, but the 98%, from this seller EDIT REMOVED

[barneey]

I`ve been doing a little more reading up on sulphuric acids, the item I have is only really good for a cleaner & I wouldnt be happy using it for anything else. (I`ve removed all the links).

EDIT rest of post deleted....