Additions for a Stout - Help!!

[Matt12398]

Like I said, raising the bicarbonate levels is for the purpose of getting the mash pH right. If you're then adding acid you're wasting your time because you're putting something in and then removing it again. You're adding steps that aren't required.

[barry44]

Cheers lads for taking the time to consider my issues and offer advice.

I hear what you are saying Matt but to raise my calcium to the required level by any other means than lime and then acid, would push the sulfate and chloride levels over the required level.

For example, I usually brew to the pale Ale profile and use gypsum and calcium chloride to get the water as I need it but by using these to raise the calcium, they also take the sulfate and Chloride levels with them, which isn't such a big deal with that profile.

I can see no other way to hit the required mash pH.

[Eric]

The numbers are molar masses. A litre of water can dissolve almost 3/4 litre of CO2 at atmospheric pressure having a weight of almost 1.5 gm. It is necessary to have some positive pressure to cause the gas to dissolve in the above setup.

The non diastatic grains are mixed with the paler malts to use their diastatic power to convert those grains to sugars. Steeping them separately will produce a different beer. It is common to use very pale, white, malts to provide the necessary enzymes to convert large quantities of dark grains.

It is my opinion, for what it's worth, that you are digging yourself into a hole if you insist to have a low chloride level in a stout.

[barry44]

Thanks Eric, i must confess that your post has flown way over my head!!!

The Chloride level I've chosen is the one in the bru n water profile for black bitter. I see from your previous post that your Chloride levels were several times that and it made an enjoyable drink.

I'll play around with the other salts with that in mind and see what I get.

[barry44]

I've omitted the acid and the lime and increased my calcium chloride to get the required calcium level.

To this end my Chloride has increased to 117 ppm and my mash pH is 5.3.

Happy days!

[Eric]

With little or no alkalinity I fail to understand how such a grist will mash at pH 5.3. It will be interesting to learn what you measure.

[barry44]

I have had another go, replacing table salt with baking soda to get the chloride up.

My chloride value is now 93.

I now have a hardness of 226 and alkalinity of 47 with this change resulting in a mash pH of 5.4.

How does that sound?

[Eric]

Can you increase the baking soda by, say, 60% and list the quantities of calcium, magnesium, sodium, sulphate, chloride and alkalinity please?

[barry44]

Increased the baking soda from 0.06 to 0.1 and the values are as follows:

Calcium - 59.2 ppm
Magnesium - 19.1 ppm
Sodium - 31.4 ppm
Sulphate - 81.8 ppm
Chloride - 92.6 ppm
Alkalinity - 71 ppm

[Eric]

Increased the baking soda from 0.06 to 0.1 and the values are as follows:

Calcium - 59.2 ppm
Magnesium - 19.1 ppm
Sodium - 31.4 ppm
Sulphate - 81.8 ppm
Chloride - 92.6 ppm
Alkalinity - 71 ppm

Well, I'd increase the baking soda again to get alkalinity to 95ppm CaCO3 in the mash but not in the sparge liquor. Then add calcium chloride flake to get the calcium above 100ppm for all liquor.

[barry44]

Eric,

i have carried out your instructions and met the values as required.

However, i do not understand what you mean by ensuring the alklanity in the mash but not the sparge water.

Bru n water does not allow a baking soda addition to the sparge water, is this what you mean?

The addition of calcium chloride to attain 100ppm of calcium has resulted in a level of chloride of 165ppm which is over the 100ppm that bru n water states as a maximum value for most cases.

Thanks again for your attention on this post Eric.

[Eric]

Hi Barry, I believe your objective was to use the facilities within Bru'n Water to aid adjusting your domestic water to a published Dublin profile. I think that might be something like 120ppm calcium and 300ppm bicarbonate, both of which your water substantially lacks. The picture I posted previously showed a way to increase calcium bicarbonate in water using precipitated chalk and carbon dioxide and if this could be done with your water it might get rather close to that particular Dublin profile. What Bru'n Water would think of its suitability would be interesting.

Using sodium bicarbonate to provide alkalinity to stabilise a darker grain mash will keep a low level of calcium. That level is more suited for brewing a lager, as Tennent's have in Glasgow since 1885, but well short of that for a robust stout of the same period brewed in areas with more natural alkalinity. The choice of route taken has to be yours, but with low levels of calcium and chloride it is not possible to experience the full range of malt flavours available from roasted grains that can be alien to or disliked by many who have not previously exerienced them.

We seem obsessed with pH, but that scale does have some virtues. We have water in our taps anywhere between the statutory limits of pH 6.5 and 9.5 and none eat our pipes, damage our gullets, spoil our food or kill our more usual pet fish, yet we read every where a mash must be near to 5.3. The truth is it's better not to get too far from that number and one occasion is when you are trying to wash out the last of the sugars from the grains when it is possible that the alkalinity in the sparge water might lift out unwanted items, such as tannin, because the buffering power of the grains and sugars are then depleted. So high alkalinity is best avoided towards the end of sparging, more especially when levels of calcium are low.

Good luck.

[barry44]

Eric,

i am going to follow your proposals and see how i get on. I will report back on the mash pH based on these additions.

My friend brews stouts without water treatments using the glaswegian soft water so it will be good to compare the two together.

Thanks again for all your assistance.

[simmyb]

Hi Barry,
I use Brun water routinely when treating my water and find that it is very useful for guaging the additions to hit the required pH for a particular grain bill. However, I do take the recommended max levels for the sulphates and chlorides with a pinch of salt if you will excuse the pun

If you were to look at the water profile suggested for a stout in Grahams Water calculator (look in the ‘calculators’ section at the top of the page) you will find levels of chlorides that will have all kinds of alarms going off in Brun water. What I take from this is that there is no hard and fast ‘correct’ quantity of each ion for any particular style, rather a suggested range or ratio. Personally, if I am brewing a traditional english bitter I will look more to Grahams suggestions, if it is an uber hoppy american pale ale, I may take more notice of the Brun water Pale Ale profile.

At the end of the day, Brunwater is a tool (and a pretty good one in my opinion) to help you design your water to achieve the flavour profile YOU require while getting the mash pH in the recommended range.

I would say for a stout, if your chosen water profile gives a pH about 5.3 to 5.4, with a calcium level around or in excess of 100 ppm and you have about 1.5 times more chlorides than sulphates, you wont go too far wrong.

Cheers, Simon

[barry44]

I've had this in the bottle now for four weeks and I am very impressed with the outcome. I gave one to my stout loving mate and he described it as 'f-ing brilliant'.

I'm happy with that!!

Many thanks to all of your help with the additions.