Water treatment for high Alkalinity

[Charles1968]

Don't knock Duff Beer, it's a lovely pint

[Aleman]

Eric's right - you can probably get the water right for bitter and porter. Not pale lager though.

Unless you look at the Munich profiles for Helles . . . Munich breweries use lower hopping rates to account for the high sulphate levels they have to deal with, so that the bitterness is not perceived as 'harsh'.

[millmaster]

Do the lime treatment as suggested by Kai on the Braukaiser site - all you add is food grade slaked lime, and wierd as it sounds it takes the alkalinity out, with no unwanted mineral additions. Can't give you the exact link as it says site is down for maintenance, but its somewhere in here.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... pH_control

It works, I got my 234 mg/l alkalinity water down to 50 mg/l and could have gone further and would let you make lager if you wanted

[will_raymo2000]

As an example I intend on brewing Alemans North German Pilsner (http://forum.craft brewing.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=48) next, have all the ingredients just wanted to have a play with water treatment for it. Be that with acids or dilution or both.

I don't think i'd be able to get a true Pilsner water profile from my water but has anyone got a suggestion about what to aim for so I can play in Brunwater?

[Aleman]

Do the lime treatment as suggested by Kai on the Braukaiser site <snip> It works, I got my 234 mg/l alkalinity water down to 50 mg/l and could have gone further and would let you make lager if you wanted

It does, the Germans have been using it for years, as it's technically Rhineheitsgebot Remember that it is not just alkalinity that can cause issues with brewing a pilsner the sulphate and chloride levels should be considered, which the Lime method does not reduce. In the OP's case that's actually not necessarily going to cause him too many problems as long as he doesn't aggressively hop his pilsner, I would try and keep the BU:GU ratio below 0.75, which for my North German Pilsner (Dortmunder) means that you should drop the bittering hops slightly as the BU:GU is 0.85 . .. try around 34-35 IBU.

The typically quoted Dortmund water profile is

Calcium 225, Magnesium 40, Alkalinity 220, Sulphate 120, Sodium 60, and chloride 60

So sulphuric acid would be a good choice as you can add another 40mg (but only dropping the alkalinity by 50ppm). How to get rid of the remaining 226mg/l, well brunwater would suggest phosphoric, but like byronb I don't like it, as I know that it adds a after taste to the beers, plus it throws an insoluble deposit in the HLT, which is a bind to clean up. Dilution has been suggested, but that just dilutes everything, I know this seems a completely radical, but why not use sulphuric and hydrochloric acids to reduce your alkalinity and keep the sulphate to chloride ratio constant at 2:1 . . . as long as you pay attention to your hopping rates you'll make a great beer similar to the Dortmund breweries.

[Charles1968]

Eric's right - you can probably get the water right for bitter and porter. Not pale lager though.

Unless you look at the Munich profiles for Helles . . . Munich breweries use lower hopping rates to account for the high sulphate levels they have to deal with, so that the bitterness is not perceived as 'harsh'.

Or Dortmunder. Or anything with a bit of Munich malt to combat alkalinity. Most people equate lager with pilsner, but yes there are lots of lager styles that don't need soft water.

[Charles1968]

As an example I intend on brewing Alemans North German Pilsner (http://forum.craft brewing.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=48) next, have all the ingredients just wanted to have a play with water treatment for it. Be that with acids or dilution or both.

I don't think i'd be able to get a true Pilsner water profile from my water but has anyone got a suggestion about what to aim for so I can play in Brunwater?

Alkalinity under 50, ideally under 30. Mash pH under 5.5. Calcium over 50. Chloride and sulphate under 100.

You don't need to match true Plzen water. Even commercial pilsner makers in Plzen apparently modify the water by adding calcium to it.

By the way, the water calculator on brewersfriend is better than the brunwater spreadsheet. More powerful and simpler to use.

[WallyBrew]

Or Dortmunder. Or anything with a bit of Munich malt to combat alkalinity. Most people equate lager with pilsner, but yes there are lots of lager styles that don't need soft water.

Please do not use the term "soft water" in relation to beer it is misleading

[Charles1968]

Or Dortmunder. Or anything with a bit of Munich malt to combat alkalinity. Most people equate lager with pilsner, but yes there are lots of lager styles that don't need soft water.

Please do not use the term "soft water" in relation to beer it is misleading

Sure it's not quite the same as low alkalinity, but pilsner requires soft water (low mineral content) and low alkalinity (low bicarbonate), so I don't see anything wrong with the term if used correctly.

[WallyBrew]

Or Dortmunder. Or anything with a bit of Munich malt to combat alkalinity. Most people equate lager with pilsner, but yes there are lots of lager styles that don't need soft water.

Please do not use the term "soft water" in relation to beer it is misleading

Sure it's not quite the same as low alkalinity, but pilsner requires soft water (low mineral content) and low alkalinity (low bicarbonate), so I don't see anything wrong with the term if used correctly.

Quite

but then that is not how you used the term originally, you did not qualify it in any way. Once your original statement has been read by people who have not read further they ere misinformed and then go on to misinform others. The use of the term hard is equally as bad and very many brewers still read hardness and alkalinity as one and the same thing.

[Charles1968]

Quite

but then that is not how you used the term originally, you did not qualify it in any way. Once your original statement has been read by people who have not read further they ere misinformed and then go on to misinform others. The use of the term hard is equally as bad and very many brewers still read hardness and alkalinity as one and the same thing.

I've only used the term soft once on this thread and I used it correctly.

In any case, softness and low alkalinity are so strongly correlated that it's a fair simplification (not that I made it). Unless you live in Burton upon Trent, if you have hard water the hardness is usually calcium bicarbonate, which is what causes raised alkalinity.

[WallyBrew]

I've only used the term soft once on this thread and I used it correctly.

In any case, softness and low alkalinity are so strongly correlated that it's a fair simplification (not that I made it)

Softness and low alkalinity are NOT strongly correlated and its people who decide "it's a fair simplification" that misinform others.

[Charles1968]

Softness and low alkalinity are NOT strongly correlated and its people who decide "it's a fair simplification" that misinform others.

They can't not be correlated.

Temporary hardness (aka carbonate hardness) is caused by the exact thing that raises alkalinity: bicarbonate ions. When most people talk about their tap water being hard, they mean carbonate hardness, i.e. the kind of hardness that furs up kettles/taps with limescale. It's the exact same thing that raises alkalinity. It's also the most common cause of any kind of hardness, whether temporary or permanent.

The point about pilsner still stands. Most pale beers need low alkalinity, but a lot of them can tolerate high mineral levels. Pilsner not only needs low alkalinity, it also needs a low level of all minerals, i.e. soft water.

[WallyBrew]

You do not seem to have explained this well.

Hardness is mainly due to calcium and magnesium

Alkalinity is due to bicarbonate, carbonate and hydroxide

Take your water in Dulwich. It has an alkalinity of 190 to 210 when expressed as calcium carbonate and you have about 100 calcium and 5 magnesium. You have a hard water and you have alkalinity. The hardness is generally good but the alkalinity is bad.

Now put a softening plant in place and put your water through it. All of the magnesium and most of the calcium will be exchanged for sodium. Your water is now no longer hard and may be referred to as soft but it WILL STILL HAVE an alkalinity equivalent to 190 to 210.

So are softness and alkalinity really correlated in the way you suggest?

An old Sussex brewery that has since gone 3 ways drew its water from an aquifer that was a sodium carbonate water. So a soft water that had alkalinity. I never did like the taste of their beer.

[Charles1968]

Alkalinity is due to bicarbonate, carbonate and hydroxide

No, in domestic water it's due to bicarbonate alone. Alkalinity = bicarbonate x 0.83. Carbonate & hydroxide don't come into the equation. There is no carbonate in water - it's insoluble. Hydroxide is irrelevant in domestic water unless your water is contaminated by a nearly chemical spill.

Hardness is mainly due to calcium and magnesium

Yes, but the main source of calcium is calcium carbonate (which dissolves in weak acid to form calcium bicarbonate). So calcium hardness and alkalinity are correlated. Usually there's far more calcium in water than magnesium.

Now put a softening plant in place and put your water through it. All of the magnesium and most of the calcium will be exchanged for sodium. Your water is now no longer hard and may be referred to as soft but it WILL STILL HAVE an alkalinity equivalent to 190 to 210.

So are softness and alkalinity really correlated in the way you suggest?

Yes, because most people don't run their water through a softening plant. You've described an unsual state of affairs that isn't the norm.