Water treatment, adjusting PH

[Redbloke]

... so how does the new(ish) 'wonder powder' (pH5.2 Mash Stabiliser) come into the equation? Is it no better than CRS, DLS, etc, etc.? This was the route I was planning to take before this thread started. It seems to be very popular with our American cousins

[Graham]

I agree although there are benefits of ensuring there are good levels of calcium as well. The CRS doesn't adjust the mash ph alone, the addition of DLS which includes calcium ensures there is adequate present and should bring the mash ph into line, as I understand it anyway. I presume the table supplied by Brupaks also takes into account the calcium levels added by the addition of CRS.

It would be good if that information was available though so we didn't have to rely on DLS.

There is a table in the John Alexander book similar to the CRS table but for 75% phosphoric acid, unfortunately the Brupaks phosphoric acid (the most readily available one) doesn't say what percentage it is.

Yes, but if your water has X amount of calcium to begin with, you will still have X amount of calcium after adding CRS (unlike boiling). Depends upon how much calcium is in the water to start with, but in some cases it may not be necessary to add DLS.

I too wish that proper technical information was available on home brewing products, decent labelling would be a good start, proper informative data sheets is a must too, decent descriptions on the various business web sites is a must in my view.

I suppose that with CRS and Brupaks phosphoric, we only have to ask, but the info should volunteered and certainly on the packaging.

[Graham]

... so how does the new(ish) 'wonder powder' (pH5.2 Mash Stabiliser) come into the equation? Is it no better than CRS, DLS, etc, etc.? This was the route I was planning to take before this thread started. It seems to be very popular with our American cousins

I haven't formed an opinion on pH5.2 yet, but I can't help thinking that it is bound to have negative effects elsewhere in the brewing process.

Anyway, it is cheating. It's the equivalent of an athlete taking steroids.

[Redbloke]

I haven't formed an opinion on pH5.2 yet, but I can't help thinking that it is bound to have negative effects elsewhere in the brewing process.

Anyway, it is cheating. It's the equivalent of an athlete taking steroids.

Yeah, interesting. I think you may have opened a can of worms there.
I was going to purchase some of this stuff, but it seems too easy, too perfect. As I want to fully understand the brewing process, including water treatment, I considered this might not be for me.
If you brew a great tasting pint it's got to be more rewarding if you have had full control over every stage of the process. Or is adding gypsum or epsom salts no different?; ... not sure

[Graham]

Yeah, interesting. I think you may have opened a can of worms there.
I was going to purchase some of this stuff, but it seems too easy, too perfect. As I want to fully understand the brewing process, including water treatment, I considered this might not be for me.
If you brew a great tasting pint it's got to be more rewarding if you have had full control over every stage of the process. Or is adding gypsum or epsom salts no different?; ... not sure

Well at least gypsum and Epsom salts are found naturally in water, Burton in particular, so it's sort of natural.

pH5.2 might be fine, I don't really know, so if you want to give it a try, don't let my comments stop you.

[Appendix]There is an interesting comment by Prolix in the "pH5.2 Advice" thread . [/Appendix]

[Buzz]

PH 5.2 is designed to work within a range of ph6 -ph9 and is said to work with 90% of water types.

Interesting. I am with Thames Water and have used PH 5.2 in two brews and on neither occasion did the PH of the mash get to 5.2. In the first I used a tablespoon (and subsequently realised that the measurements were for US gallons so should have done more). On the second occasion I used 2 tablespoons and, again, it did not hit 5.2

I've also had problems with both of these brews hitting the final gravity I would have expected. It produced the clearest wort I have ever managed but, I'm wondering if some nutrients were left behind? The first one had an OG of 1054 but finished at 1022 (s-04) and the second had an OG of 1056 and has stopped at 1022 (windsor).

I'm assuming the lack of attenuation? is down to the water treatement as I've not had a problem previously, just with the 2 brews I used PH 5.2 - I'm not going to do any water treatment for my next brew (on wednesday) and will be interested to see what happens.

[andyp]

So boiling it is then

[Buzz]

What was the PH you measured ? I have read this before on other forums although most people seem to hit ph5.2 using it, could your measurement of the ph be out?

It could be out, I'm only using PH strips with the range 5.2-6.8. Both these brews displayed around 5.7/5.9. I took the readings about 10min into the mash and put the papers onto a small china plate at room temperature.

The readings are definitely lower than without any treatment, if I recall my PH prior to fiddling with water chemistry was about 6.3. I'll check when I brew again on Wednesday.

[Graham]

Yes, well I've not used the stuff, so I don't know. I expect the mineral taste was because they hadn't taken the mineral out to begin with.

My major concern is how long it goes on buffering for. I want my pH to drop gradually during the brewing process: about pH5 at the end of the boil; approaching pH4 at the end of fermentation and dropping even lower during maturation, so that all the clarification processes work. Protein drops out, copper finings work, yeast flocculates properly, yeast clears down and drops bright during maturation, isinglass works as it should and so on.

It's awl ter do wid yer isoelectric points 'n' yer zwitterions.

Isoelectric points are specific pHs where the charge on a particular molecule cancels out, or has a net charge of zero. The net charge needs to be zero or close to zero for these processes to work efficiently. These different processes have different isoelectric points, and hence a different pH, where they work at optimum efficiency. So if the pH gradually drops from mashing to the beer ending up in a beer glass, all the important isoelectric points are passed through, and everything is hunky-dory.

So if pH5.2 buggers up my zwitterions, I don't want to know it.

I suppose that the only way to find out is for me to buy some and experiment. But I have so many other experiments to do in the coming months.

Sunday's experiment was a moderate success, though. Raising the temperature of a mash by underletting with steam from my wallpaper stripper.

[Jim]

........Sunday's experiment was a moderate success, though. Raising the temperature of a mash by underletting with steam from my wallpaper stripper.

Now that's the kind of experiment I like!