Handy spreadsheet thingy:-
http://www.smartgroups.com/vault/uk-hom ... atment.xls
What's your water like?
QUOTE (Daft as a Brush @ Apr 8 2006, 12:10 PM) .........I dont see how it effects your ability to get your PH high enough, surely you should just me able to add the appropriate salts, I think you can but them in a cheaper form than brupaks are selling them for though.
Wheeler has a section on this in his 'CAMRA' Homebrewing book, im sure there is something you can do to get round this. I might just have a read <_<
It's all a bit puzzling to me. What I meant was that if my water has poor 'buffering' then the acids in the malt can quite easily turn the water more acid than it should be (i.e. lower pH) which is what I seem to be getting.
The calcium content of my water suggests that adding gypsum is the right thing to do, as the water is low in Ca.
However, when I do add gypum, it tends to lower the pH even further (which is what you would expect from the chemistry). I think maybe I'd be better off with a bit of carbonate hardness in the water rather than sulphate hardess, but I'm not sure.
I'm re-reading the section on water treatment in the Big Book of Brewing (my Wheeler's back in the library
)
:blink: :blink:
Nice link, by the way, Andy.
Wheeler has a section on this in his 'CAMRA' Homebrewing book, im sure there is something you can do to get round this. I might just have a read <_<
It's all a bit puzzling to me. What I meant was that if my water has poor 'buffering' then the acids in the malt can quite easily turn the water more acid than it should be (i.e. lower pH) which is what I seem to be getting.
The calcium content of my water suggests that adding gypsum is the right thing to do, as the water is low in Ca.
However, when I do add gypum, it tends to lower the pH even further (which is what you would expect from the chemistry). I think maybe I'd be better off with a bit of carbonate hardness in the water rather than sulphate hardess, but I'm not sure.
I'm re-reading the section on water treatment in the Big Book of Brewing (my Wheeler's back in the library
):blink: :blink:
Nice link, by the way, Andy.
I've been doing an experiment.
I did a scaled-down mash with 1/2 litre of water and 160g of pale malt (roughly equivalent to 3l per kg).
Before adding the grain, I added the equivalent of:
1 small teaspoon of gypsum per 25l
1/2 small teaspoon of bicab of soda per 25l.
The pH came out at 4.9.
I added a further (scaled down equivalent of) 4 and a half teaspoons (
) of bicarbonate of soda to get a pH of 5.2.
This has been a surprise to me, as I've never added carbonates to my liqour before, and I'm astonished by the amount I had to add to get the correct pH. If only I had a way of weighing the small quantities of salts, I could probably work out how many ppm I added.
I can't say I'm happy at the thought of adding bicarbonates, though. http://www.rpi.edu/dept/chem-eng/Biotec ... water2.htm article warns strongly against them (though I'm sure Burton water contains some bicarbonate hardness - see http://www.beer-brewing.com/apex/beer_c ... _water.htm).
I did a scaled-down mash with 1/2 litre of water and 160g of pale malt (roughly equivalent to 3l per kg).
Before adding the grain, I added the equivalent of:
1 small teaspoon of gypsum per 25l
1/2 small teaspoon of bicab of soda per 25l.
The pH came out at 4.9.
I added a further (scaled down equivalent of) 4 and a half teaspoons (
) of bicarbonate of soda to get a pH of 5.2.This has been a surprise to me, as I've never added carbonates to my liqour before, and I'm astonished by the amount I had to add to get the correct pH. If only I had a way of weighing the small quantities of salts, I could probably work out how many ppm I added.
I can't say I'm happy at the thought of adding bicarbonates, though. http://www.rpi.edu/dept/chem-eng/Biotec ... water2.htm article warns strongly against them (though I'm sure Burton water contains some bicarbonate hardness - see http://www.beer-brewing.com/apex/beer_c ... _water.htm).
Yeah, it's a puzzle. It seems that every homebrew author has hard water that needs to have its carbonates reduced!
Although I've never seen addition of sodium bicarbonate recommended, it should be OK because sodium ions are acceptable in brewing water (though it does depend on what other ions are present as well :blink: ).
I think I'll just have a pint now!
Although I've never seen addition of sodium bicarbonate recommended, it should be OK because sodium ions are acceptable in brewing water (though it does depend on what other ions are present as well :blink: ).
I think I'll just have a pint now!
And yet...
"Sodium
Sodium is present in all beers. Excessive levels are undesirable as it imparts a sour and salty taste at high concentrations. The flavour is more acceptable when the sodium is present as chloride than as sulphate."
Suggesting that some sodium is OK (from http://www.rpi.edu/dept/chem-eng/Biotec ... water2.htm).
:blink:
It seems to me that there are many opinions on what makes 'good' brewing water and some of them are mutually exclusive!
"Sodium
Sodium is present in all beers. Excessive levels are undesirable as it imparts a sour and salty taste at high concentrations. The flavour is more acceptable when the sodium is present as chloride than as sulphate."
Suggesting that some sodium is OK (from http://www.rpi.edu/dept/chem-eng/Biotec ... water2.htm).
:blink:
It seems to me that there are many opinions on what makes 'good' brewing water and some of them are mutually exclusive!
Yeah, I think I'll try just filtering first (following the principle of only changing one thing at a time) and see how I get on.
It seems that the experts can't even agree on the water composition. Graham Wheeler seems to claim that Burton water has zero bicarbonates, yet several sites, including http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/us ... water.html, gives the carbonate content as quite high (200ppm).
I think the best strategy is to experiment with one's own water (err, you know what I mean ) and find what works best.
It seems that the experts can't even agree on the water composition. Graham Wheeler seems to claim that Burton water has zero bicarbonates, yet several sites, including http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/us ... water.html, gives the carbonate content as quite high (200ppm).
I think the best strategy is to experiment with one's own water (err, you know what I mean
) and find what works best.I'll be interested in your findings re the filters, DAAB!
A thought I had; apparently although calcium carbonate is insoluble in water, it can disolve by turning into calcium bicarbonate (by some sort of reaction with CO2 in the water), so presumably this is what happens when you add calcium carbonate to the mash (otherwise it couldn't have any effect because it wouldn't be in solution).
So why not just add the correct amount of calcium bicarbonate??
A thought I had; apparently although calcium carbonate is insoluble in water, it can disolve by turning into calcium bicarbonate (by some sort of reaction with CO2 in the water), so presumably this is what happens when you add calcium carbonate to the mash (otherwise it couldn't have any effect because it wouldn't be in solution).
So why not just add the correct amount of calcium bicarbonate??
-
tribs
I have a similar problem to Jim in that my tap water has very little mineral content. Fortunately the quantity of chlorine is also negligible. I use the method of estimating alkalinity from Palmers online book http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html. Essentially I add bicarbonate soda to dark beers.
The suggested method is to add bicarb soda or calcium carbonate (chalk) to the mash and test pH because of its limited solubility. I haven't ever tested the pH of my mash, but I am yet to brew a bad batch. That said I don't know the side effects of an overly acidic mash (which is what I would be prone to). I know an overly alkaline mash would extract tannins etc from the grain, but can't find any info on what happens if the mash is too acidic.
I think I shall test pH on my next mash. Any suggestions for obtaining strips?
The suggested method is to add bicarb soda or calcium carbonate (chalk) to the mash and test pH because of its limited solubility. I haven't ever tested the pH of my mash, but I am yet to brew a bad batch. That said I don't know the side effects of an overly acidic mash (which is what I would be prone to). I know an overly alkaline mash would extract tannins etc from the grain, but can't find any info on what happens if the mash is too acidic.
I think I shall test pH on my next mash. Any suggestions for obtaining strips?
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-4.html
I'm starting to lose the will to live with this water business now. <_<
I've even read that the water companies sometimes add something to very soft water to make it more alkaline so that it doesn't corrode the pipes.
I think I'm going to use either calcium carbonate or sodium bicarb in the mash next time.
I'm starting to lose the will to live with this water business now. <_<
I've even read that the water companies sometimes add something to very soft water to make it more alkaline so that it doesn't corrode the pipes.
I think I'm going to use either calcium carbonate or sodium bicarb in the mash next time.
I've found a brewery nearby that does have a similar water supply.
Its the http://www.durham-brewery.co.uk/html-files/index.html at Bowburn near Durham, which my Northumbria water hardness chart assures me is quite similar (moderately soft). I'm going to give them a ring after the hols. Maybe I can get a look round the place if I play my cards right.
They've got some http://www.durham-brewery.co.uk/html-files/forsale.html for sale if anyone's interested.
In the meantime I'm shopping for calcium carbonate; not as easy as I imagined. I remember the time when you could walk into a high street chemist and buy all sorts of stuff, but now all the medicines they dispense seems to be pre-manufactured, so they don't stock the basic ingredients to make them any more.
There's a home brew shop in Durham indoor market, so I'm going to pop along there tomorrow lunchtime (as I'm brewing on Friday and can't wait for an internet order to arrive).
Ho hum!
Its the http://www.durham-brewery.co.uk/html-files/index.html at Bowburn near Durham, which my Northumbria water hardness chart assures me is quite similar (moderately soft). I'm going to give them a ring after the hols. Maybe I can get a look round the place if I play my cards right.
They've got some http://www.durham-brewery.co.uk/html-files/forsale.html for sale if anyone's interested.
In the meantime I'm shopping for calcium carbonate; not as easy as I imagined. I remember the time when you could walk into a high street chemist and buy all sorts of stuff, but now all the medicines they dispense seems to be pre-manufactured, so they don't stock the basic ingredients to make them any more.
There's a home brew shop in Durham indoor market, so I'm going to pop along there tomorrow lunchtime (as I'm brewing on Friday and can't wait for an internet order to arrive).
Ho hum!
I've got the stuff now, anyway. I phoned up the guy who runs the shop and he actually only had one tub left, which was at the main shop in Houghton-le-Spring. He took it over to Durham for me to pick up! That's what I call service!
Andy, it's going to be my bog-standard stock bitter. That way I can judge the effect the treatment has had on the taste etc.
I'll report back tomorrow on how the mash pH went! B)