Bru'n Water

[JammyBStard]

In the case of the water that Jammy presents, all the major ions excepting alkalinity or the carbonate species are presented. The difference in the ion totals is significant and should raise a concern. Fortunately since the data from the water report is fairly complete and the water quality doesn't seem to vary too much, it does appear that a brewer could 'back-calculate' the bicarbonate content of the water by finding the concentration that balances the ion totals. Performing testing on the water to confirm the alkalinity or bicarbonate values would be a wise double-check.

Thought you'd like to know Martin. I got my Salifert test Kit this morning. I just did a test and got 196.5 ppm CaCO3 perfectly balancing "0.00" the Cations and Anions on your spread sheet which is pretty cool.

I know alot of people seem to have fallen out of love with CRS because of - I assume - the Sulphate it adds, but I'm just playing around trying out ways of Burtonising the water and is it safe to say it might be the preferd option if your trying to get 400ppm of Sulphate . It looks like Gypsum and Epsom Salt will be used for the rest.

[WallyBrew]

If you are trying to match the profile given in Bru'n Water then you do not need any CRS or any other acid. It gives a bicarbonate that is slightly greater than yours so you only need to add gypsum and epsom salts.

It's up to you whether you are happy with this profile especially with respect to the alkalinity

see viewtopic.php?f=9&t=61666&start=15#p649018

If you do wish to decrease the alkalinity then sulphuric would be better as you will not be increasing the chloride but then it's not without its problems - viewtopic.php?f=9&t=54966&start=15#p649171

[JammyBStard]

Without Acid my mash PH woud be aroun 5.8 depending a bit on the malt bill. Is Mash PH or Bicarbonate the most important factor if your say making a Burton IPA?

[Eric]

I know alot of people seem to have fallen out of love with CRS because of - I assume - the Sulphate it adds, but I'm just playing around trying out ways of Burtonising the water and is it safe to say it might be the preferd option if your trying to get 400ppm of Sulphate . It looks like Gypsum and Epsom Salt will be used for the rest.

I have this feeling that CRS is currently out of favour due to input from places where AMS/CRS is not readily available while others such as phosphoric are. Mind, I have not dissimilar feelings about the success of Burton beer, having much to do with Pickford's buying Wm Bass's transport business that let him brew and use his expertise on the newly opened Trent and Mersey Canal to supply the mass markets of Britain and Europe.

While I find AMS/CRS goes great with my water and phosphoric not, that doesn't mean good beer can't be made with phosphoric, that CRS is ideal for all occasions or that Burton beer isn't damn good. However, there are more ways to skin a rabbit and even more ways of brewing superb beer than some would have you believe.

My water's alkalinity in terms of CaCO3 is around 240 mg/l. Its profile when treated with sulphuric acid to a suitable level of alkalinity for an all pale malt mash is similar to some opinions for Burton brewing water. CRS could never do this with any water. But then again, life isn't that easy (as referred to above) as the acid I have "Isn't quite what Murphy say on the tin". Still in the world of pencil and paper, the error was found before the next stage started. Not having Bru'n Water or any other brewing software, I can't say what result there could have been.

[mabrungard]

In the case of the water that Jammy presents, all the major ions excepting alkalinity or the carbonate species are presented. The difference in the ion totals is significant and should raise a concern. Fortunately since the data from the water report is fairly complete and the water quality doesn't seem to vary too much, it does appear that a brewer could 'back-calculate' the bicarbonate content of the water by finding the concentration that balances the ion totals. Performing testing on the water to confirm the alkalinity or bicarbonate values would be a wise double-check.

Thought you'd like to know Martin. I got my Salifert test Kit this morning. I just did a test and got 196.5 ppm CaCO3 perfectly balancing "0.00" the Cations and Anions on your spread sheet which is pretty cool.

I know alot of people seem to have fallen out of love with CRS because of - I assume - the Sulphate it adds, but I'm just playing around trying out ways of Burtonising the water and is it safe to say it might be the preferd option if your trying to get 400ppm of Sulphate . It looks like Gypsum and Epsom Salt will be used for the rest.

A balance with the ions is encouraging, but its not a sure sign that the water information is truly accurate since testing for all the ions would be a better definition. But its better than the balance getting wider! A truer test is if the mash pH and other predicted pH adjustments are confirmed by actual testing.

CRS should be fine in some cases. We know that elevated sulfate can be welcome in some styles. The problem I see with CRS is the amount of chloride that accompanies the sulfate it delivers. As you will see in the 'balanced' Burton profile that I've included in Bru'n Water, that water has very high sulfate and quite modest chloride. That is what makes it possible to brew with a Burton water without incurring a minerally taste. Dortmund beer is known for its minerally character and that water is similar to Burton water excepting that the chloride content is far higher. High Sulfate + High Chloride = Minerally.

If brewers are going to try elevated sulfate level in their beers, be sure to keep the chloride low. Colin Kaminsky, co-author of the upcoming water book, told me that he has brewed with up to something like 800 ppm sulfate and he liked the beer. However, he mentioned that most of his customers did not. I look forward to hearing from brewers that use greater than 350 ppm sulfate in their water. I've not done it since I found the 300 ppm level pleasant for my tastes. We each have preferences and homebrewing is the best way to get the beer that YOU like.

[AnthonyUK]

I've just contributed to Bru'n'water so have started looking at the updated sheet Martin kindly provided.
Any BIAB guys have any tips on how to best use it as it appears suited for 3V e.g acidifcation on the sparge tab?
I liked the regular sheet where all additions were on one tab.

[orlando]

I've just contributed to Bru'n'water so have started looking at the updated sheet Martin kindly provided.
Any BIAB guys have any tips on how to best use it as it appears suited for 3V e.g acidifcation on the sparge tab?
I liked the regular sheet where all additions were on one tab.

Am I right in assuming you add water to the total boil volume? If so, even if the water is not used to sparge I would still get the alkalinity right because otherwise you will raise the kettle pH, therefore use the sparge acidification tab to do so.

[AnthonyUK]

What I meant is with the way I BIAB there is only one amount of water as I don't sparge.
I intend to get the water right as my Bicarb is over 300 untreated.

[orlando]

In that case I would still fill out the sparge acidification tab as if you were using it just in case it is required and just ignore the sparge volume section, putting all your water volume into the the water adjustment tab under mash only, replicating that figure in the total volume. I'm sure Martin will correct any of this if it's wrong.

[AnthonyUK]

Cheers, I'll give it a try.

[Cpt.Frederickson]

I've ignored the sparge acidification up to now other than to select the acid type and not had any problems as yet!

[mabrungard]

If your tap water either has very low alkalinity or you use a low alkalinity water like distilled or RO, then you don't really need to bother with sparge acidification. Its when you have higher alkalinity water that it will be important to acidify the sparging water. Skipping acidification when your tap water has high alkalinity is a good way to bring tannins into your wort when sparging.

[orlando]

Skipping acidification when your tap water has high alkalinity is a good way to bring tannins into your wort when sparging.

He isn't sparging he is BIAB ing.

[AnthonyUK]

I've ignored the sparge acidification up to now other than to select the acid type and not had any problems as yet!

That works well. Cheers.
It appears you need a non-zero value for volume on this tab but on the water adjustment tab the value in the sparge additions can be zero so this what I went with.

How's it looking?

[Cpt.Frederickson]

I think that you'd have to adjust the additional water you're adding to achieve the total volume in your case, even though its not a sparge per se. But otherwise it looks fine mate.
With my set up all the additions are added to the mash, so maybe someone else can come in if they know any different?