Water treatment

[RabMaxwell]

When i have been adding mineral additions i have been adding the amount that Promash has calculated to the mash. But the calculated Gypsum value for the sparge water i have been adding to the kettle instead as i worry about lowering the mash Ph to much with the whole lot added to my mash with my low Carbonate water. I normally mix my Gypsum with boiled water then slowly add to the boiling kettle while mixing. What's the best way to get Gypsum into solution in the kettle

[Graham]

Vossi i am planning brewing another Bluebird Bitter it was excellent the last time using Brupaks figures for a bitter Ca / 170 Mg / 15 Na /60 SO4 / 400 CL /200 HCO3 /25 . I find Promash easy enough to use /use this as your target with your water as source. I agree it can take a little fiddling to get it near as possible sometimes but once you have worked out the profile you prefer that's you sorted for that style. But with this brew i am going to add 1/4 more Gypsum Double my Epsom Salts & add 1/3 more Calcium Chloride as these absorb moisture (This was posted by Mr Edge) & explains why http://xrl.us/bdvoh

Beware the Murphy's chloride levels are frighteningly high for a pale ale.

Re the CBA article: It isn't quite right that it is water absorbed from the atmosphere; it is water of crystallisation which is not the same thing. When these salts are manufactured they take on water of crystallisation as part of the crystallisation process. It is part of their chemical formula.

For example: Plaster of Paris and gypsum are both calcium sulphate, but they behave differently. Plaster of Paris will set into a tough hard lump if you wet it, but gypsum doesn't. The difference is the number of water molecules chemically bonded to it.

Different manufacturing processes produce crystals containing different numbers of water molecules. With some salts the water can be removed after crystallisation by another process, in which case we can have the anhydrous salt (no water), but some salts cannot be made in their anhydrous form and others vice-versa. Many salts are available in both hydrated and anhydrous forms, and with some there are various hydrated forms depending upon how many water molecules are bonded.

Obviously the author of promash wasn't aware of this and assumes that our salts are anhydrous, which is not the form we get then in. We also have to trust that the wholesaler knows what he is doing and orders the right stuff when he buys it too.

This doesn't mean that these salts do not absorb water from the atmosphere like anything else that gets damp; particularly calcium chloride which is highly hydroscopic, but that's a different thing.

[Graham]

When i have been adding mineral additions i have been adding the amount that Promash has calculated to the mash. But the calculated Gypsum value for the sparge water i have been adding to the kettle instead as i worry about lowering the mash Ph to much with the whole lot added to my mash with my low Carbonate water. I normally mix my Gypsum with boiled water then slowly add to the boiling kettle while mixing. What's the best way to get Gypsum into solution in the kettle

That sounds fine to me

[RabMaxwell]

Is there anything that isn't complex about water treatment

[Graham]

Is there anything that isn't complex about water treatment

It's probably the most difficult thing to get to grips with in home brewing. I can't think of anything more complicated that we try to grapple with in this hobby; certainly the science of it anyway. It isn't helped by a huge amount of disinformation around.

The easy way is just to get rid of carbonate, and to add calcium to the mash on a trial-and-error basis, modifying it on successive brews until the mash pH is right. Sorted then.

[Aleman]

Is the resultant water after the recommended Brupaks/Murphys CRS treatment considered soft water prior to the addition of DLS?

No it is water with a low alkalinity, Soft water is low in Calcium and magnesium salts

This Post on UK Homebrew covers the distinction pretty well, I've reproduced it here for purposes of continuity

It appears that a reminder about the difference between alkalinity and hardness is timely.

I got an alkalinity figure of 282 as CaCO3 (is this mg/L?) from the Southern Water website, which, by the reckoning of James McCrorie's article, and the table in Brupak's literature, can be reduced by around 256 to give a residual hardness of ~30mg/L with the
addition of ...

I suspect confusion when I read "... an alkalinity figure ... can be reduced ... to give a residual hardness ..." I think Noel might have had a similar confusion a few weeks ago. I must apologise, Jeremy, if the foregoing was a typo and you aren't actually confused. But here goes....

Alkalinity could be regarded as the opposite of acidity and is reduced by the addition of acids. Many (most?) water supplies are quite alkaline and for a good mash it is desirable to reduce the level of alkalinity to an appropriate value. It is not uncommon for this to be done using acids such as CRS.

Hardness is a measure of the amount of Calcium and Magnesium in the water. For a good mash it is desirable to ensure an appropriate level of Calcium is present. It is not uncommon to increase the Calcium in the mash by the addition of salts such as DLS.

The two are not directly related (although there is an interaction in the mash). If I add Hydrochloric acid (HCl) to the water, the alkalinity drops but the hardness remains unchanged. If I add Calcium Sulphate to the water, the hardness goes up (by increasing the Calcium) but the alkalinity remains unchanged.

But the water scientists set little traps for the unwary. They often quote levels of both alkalinity and hardness "as CaCO3". It is highly unlikely that you will actually have any CaCO3 in your water. CaCO3 has two bits: "Ca" and "CO3"; the Calcium bit and the Carbonate bit. The first of these bits relates to hardness and second bit to alkalinity. When giving levels of hardness "as CaCO3" it means how much CaCO3 do I need to add to pure water to contribute sufficient Ca so that I get the same hardness effect as the sample water. When giving levels of alkalinity "as CaCO3" it means how much CaCO3 do I need to add to pure water to contribute sufficient CO3 so that I get the same alkalinity as the sample water.

For the record: the hardness in your water won't be just from Calcium as there will probably be Magnesium present; and the alkalinity of your water will almost all be in the form of the bicarbonate ion (HCO3) at the pH of normal supplies. By quoting "as CaCO3" they are using a sort of "equivalence" thing.

So, although hardness and alkalinity can both be given "as CaCO3" it is important not to confuse the two. When Jeremy said "I got an alkalinity figure of 282 as CaCO3...", it is clear; when Noel on 23 March said "My CaCo3 = 40 p.p.m. Okay", it is not clear.

I hope I have helped rather than confused further.

Cheers
Geoff

[mysterio]

I got this after many E-mails & letters to scottish water there not the most helpful people this is from old results about 10 years or more ago when they used to test for these things. I have fished there in the last few years & it still looks like a Peat Bog so i doubt the water will change that much.
Mg /.870 mg/L S04 / 5.000mg/L Ca / 23.000mg/L Cl / 43.9mg/L Na / 3.450mg/L HC03 / 8.800mg/L
I have been hitting my mash ph bang on with bringing my HCO3 level up to 25 for beers of 9-11 SRM i found PH 5.2 did nothing. For dark beers stouts porters ect i get good results just leaving the darker malts to nearly the end of the mash. My idea is to get the right Ph for most of the mash without using tones of carbonate does the trick

Cheers that's a big help.

Can anyone recommend a good, accurate set of scales for weighing out small amounts of salt?

[Aleman]

Can anyone recommend a good, accurate set of scales for weighing out small amounts of salt?

I did that recently in the equipment forum and got accused of buying them for measuring out 'herbs', whatever that means?

[Vossy1]

Is there anything that isn't complex about water treatment

I'll catch up with the above posts later but for the moment today I spent a lot of time doing this

United Utilites kept refering me to the PH value of my water (7.2) when I asked them for a total alkalinity figure. They said they had no figures for carbonate of any kind for my water.

I assume this (Ph) is just a reference to the amount of 'free' hydrogen ions in the water.

Is there a way of working out the total alkalinity based on the ph figures, mineral composition and degrees clarke? I'm already thinking not...but you never know

[Aleman]

which carbonates does CRS reduce?

Sorry Missed this,

What you have in water is a pH dependent equilibrium between Hydrogen carbonate and carbonate. When you add acid to the water it reacts with the hydrogen carbonate forming water and CO2. The CO2 gasses off (hopefully), however you have now disturbed the equilibrium, so more of the carbonate converts to hydrogen carbonate, which if there is an excess of acid is converted to Water and Carbon Dioxide. The equilibrium continues to shift until all of the carbonate is neutralised or the excess of acid has gone.


And for the confused amongst us

Blah blah blah blahddy blah blah blah

[Mashman]

And for the confused amongst us

Blah blah blah blahddy blah blah blah

That me then

[nobby]

Is there anything that isn't complex about water treatment

I'll catch up with the above posts later but for the moment today I spent a lot of time doing this

United Utilites kept refering me to the PH value of my water (7.2) when I asked them for a total alkalinity figure. They said they had no figures for carbonate of any kind for my water.

I assume this (Ph) is just a reference to the amount of 'free' hydrogen ions in the water.

Is there a way of working out the total alkalinity based on the ph figures, mineral composition and degrees clarke? I'm already thinking not...but you never know

You can work out your Alkalinity look at this link http://www.unitedutilities.com/?OBH=4050

To convert Clark Degrees or mg Calcium per litre to mg CaCO3 /litre

Divide Clarke Degrees by 0.07
Divide mg Calcium per litre by 0.4

This should give you your CaCO3

I also found this page usefull http://www.brupaks.com/water%20treatment.htm

[Aleman]

You can work out your Alkalinity look at this link http://www.unitedutilities.com/?OBH=4050

To convert Clark Degrees or mg Calcium per litre to mg CaCO3 /litre

Divide Clarke Degrees by 0.07
Divide mg Calcium per litre by 0.4

This should give you your CaCO3

I also found this page usefull http://www.brupaks.com/water%20treatment.htm

Dividing my Calcium (15.4) by 04, Gives 38.5, and yet my Alkalinity (in CaCO3) is 22 so there is something wrong here. Its just one of the problems with the water utility reports, they have so few samples for the important brewing ions throughout the year that they are next to useless. The Brupaks information is based on the Murphy's water treatment guide, and that has massive discrepancies as well, just look at the level of chloride suggested for a Pale ale -190mg/l which would have a massive impact on the malt profile, when it is the hop bitterness which should dominate

(This has been edited to remove my obvious cock up )

[bandit]

If we reduce the Ph with acids what role does calcium play in the mash tun? I have heard that you need a lot of gypsum to reduce pH so does it offer anything or is it better off in the copper as a mineral to enhance flavour profile?

[Graham]

If we reduce the Ph with acids what role does calcium play in the mash tun? I have heard that you need a lot of gypsum to reduce pH so does it offer anything or is it better off in the copper as a mineral to enhance flavour profile?

You don't add enough acid to reduce the pH - that would be overdoing it. You only add enough acid to neutralise the carbonate, the buffering effect. Irrespective of that, the mash enzymes still need calcium in order to function properly no matter what the pH might be. In fact, adding acids to the water does not cause the calcium to go away. Adding sulphuric acid, for instance, will convert calcium carbonate (undesirable) into calcium sulphate (usually desirable). The calcium is still there - it's just the carbonate that goes (converted into water and carbon dioxide).