Trying out with Sulphuric acid

[Cpt.Frederickson]

Although the Cpt has already emailed me directly, I'll comment here for posterity...

...By the way, combinations of citric, malic, acetic, etc, acids are not unthinkable. There could be flavor effects that you want in your beer and little additions of any acids may be a way of including those effects in your beer.

Glad my post here and email to Martin has instigated some more thought and discussion over this!

I probably didn't make it clear here that my aim, like a number of others who have mooted the idea of sulphuric acid additions, is to increase the sulphate levels as well as lower pH as I brew pales nigh on exclusively. I've been quite satisfied with phosphoric to date, but its difficult to adjust my profile to get all the levels to suit.

My problem is, to get it in the right range whilst using phosphoric I was having to dilute with RO, which frankly is a pain. Hence the 'ideal' scenario of adding salts to match required levels of each ion except sulphate, then topping up with sulphuric to round off. Then there is merely the simple matter of adjusting pH to within range using the phosphoric. Hey presto, ideal pale ale profile

Huge thanks Martin for the info you provided, glad you've confirmed it is as relatively simple to calculate as I hoped

[orlando]

Edit: my main interest in this is in trying to get as close to the Burton profile as I can. Burton Bitter is one of my favourites, along with Adnam's, West Yorkshire, North Yorkshire and several others Having said that, there might be more experiments to be done with phosphoric yet. I tasted my Burton Bitter yesterday whose SG was 1020 - so a bit to go yet. I didn't notice much in the way of sulphur notes, but that could change as the gravity comes down more. The sulphate level is 350 ppm and could probably get it up a bit more without resorting to sulphuric.

What is the chloride level?

I have a copy of a brewer's journal that shows a Burton brewer boiling & treating their water, I don't have the owners permission to share the knowledge specifically, but it is further evidence that the "Burton profile" is complicated and it might be that although the water is still relatively high in sulphate it could just be that the yeast and union system of brewing is also responsible for it too.

[Dave S]

Edit: my main interest in this is in trying to get as close to the Burton profile as I can. Burton Bitter is one of my favourites, along with Adnam's, West Yorkshire, North Yorkshire and several others Having said that, there might be more experiments to be done with phosphoric yet. I tasted my Burton Bitter yesterday whose SG was 1020 - so a bit to go yet. I didn't notice much in the way of sulphur notes, but that could change as the gravity comes down more. The sulphate level is 350 ppm and could probably get it up a bit more without resorting to sulphuric.

What is the chloride level?

I have a copy of a brewer's journal that shows a Burton brewer boiling & treating their water, I don't have the owners permission to share the knowledge specifically, but it is further evidence that the "Burton profile" is complicated and it might be that although the water is still relatively high in sulphate it could just be that the yeast and union system of brewing is also responsible for it too.

The Chloride in my tap water is 110 ppm, which is quite high. I am thinking of trying a proportion of Tesco Value to bring it down to around 50 or 60, so about 50-50. Having said that my current Burton at 350:110 is OK. But you're right, I'm sure there are other factors involved in getting that lovely sulphur stench. I'll let you know how my Burton turns out - tasted very nice by the way on Saturday at 1020.

[orlando]

tasted very nice by the way on Saturday at 1020.

PM or SG

[Dave S]

tasted very nice by the way on Saturday at 1020.

PM or SG

Ha ha

[sllimeel]

Since switching to Phosphoric, I've been getting on ok especially as I've been diluting with RO water to help me reach the right profile. I'm using Bru'n Water at the mo and getting the pH down to about 5.55, but want it about 5.3.

I have found the same, the mash is coming out in the 5.44-5.53 for the last two brews, just can't get it down lower. Will have to add more Phosphoric acid than the Bru'n water sheet is telling me or gypsum ...next time.

[orlando]

Since switching to Phosphoric, I've been getting on ok especially as I've been diluting with RO water to help me reach the right profile. I'm using Bru'n Water at the mo and getting the pH down to about 5.55, but want it about 5.3.

I have found the same, the mash is coming out in the 5.44-5.53 for the last two brews, just can't get it down lower. Will have to add more Phosphoric acid than the Bru'n water sheet is telling me or gypsum ...next time.

My starting point is to start with phosphoric to get the mash pH in the vicinity of what I'm after and then add the minerals to get the salt profile right, if that takes it below the desired pH I then adjust the acid.

[Dave S]

Since switching to Phosphoric, I've been getting on ok especially as I've been diluting with RO water to help me reach the right profile. I'm using Bru'n Water at the mo and getting the pH down to about 5.55, but want it about 5.3.

I have found the same, the mash is coming out in the 5.44-5.53 for the last two brews, just can't get it down lower. Will have to add more Phosphoric acid than the Bru'n water sheet is telling me or gypsum ...next time.

My starting point is to start with phosphoric to get the mash pH in the vicinity of what I'm after and then add the minerals to get the salt profile right, if that takes it below the desired pH I then adjust the acid.

Pretty much what I do.

[sllimeel]

Since switching to Phosphoric, I've been getting on ok especially as I've been diluting with RO water to help me reach the right profile. I'm using Bru'n Water at the mo and getting the pH down to about 5.55, but want it about 5.3.

I have found the same, the mash is coming out in the 5.44-5.53 for the last two brews, just can't get it down lower. Will have to add more Phosphoric acid than the Bru'n water sheet is telling me or gypsum ...next time.

My starting point is to start with phosphoric to get the mash pH in the vicinity of what I'm after and then add the minerals to get the salt profile right, if that takes it below the desired pH I then adjust the acid.

I do the same, but, i also dilute my mash to get the correct ratio 2:1 for bitters. Its a game of adjust this, adjust that to fit what i want. So somewhere in that mix is the cause of the slightly higher mash ph?

[Cpt.Frederickson]

Since switching to Phosphoric, I've been getting on ok especially as I've been diluting with RO water to help me reach the right profile.
However, the ideal solution may be using a combination of acids...
What I'm suggesting is using Sulphuric (25%, from Murphy's) to a given sulphate value combined with my liquor salt additions and then reducing the pH further as needed with phosphoric.
My question is, how do I go about calculating this? I'm using Bru'n Water at the mo and getting the pH down to about 5.55, but want it about 5.3.

Sllimeel, the pH value I'm referring to is the hypothetical pH I'd get when adding sulphuric and the right combinations if salts to meet a desired profile. Using the RO water was just to help me achieve this goal whilst using phosphoric. What I was suggesting is that could I use a second acid to further adjust pH. Hence the later replies from Martin et al.
I concur with the others, if you're overshooting pH there are a few things to check on, other than just adding more acid.
1. Are you certain of your water volume?
2. Have you checked the alkalinity prior to the brew by testing the water you are using, or are you going for a general water report?
3. Are you certain of the volume of water used?
4. Is your pH meter calibrated, and the wort you are measuring at the correct temperature

I'm sure others could chime in with other variables. I have to say, two brews with the spreadsheet and I'm hitting values pretty closely.

[orlando]

Since switching to Phosphoric, I've been getting on ok especially as I've been diluting with RO water to help me reach the right profile.
However, the ideal solution may be using a combination of acids...
What I'm suggesting is using Sulphuric (25%, from Murphy's) to a given sulphate value combined with my liquor salt additions and then reducing the pH further as needed with phosphoric.
My question is, how do I go about calculating this? I'm using Bru'n Water at the mo and getting the pH down to about 5.55, but want it about 5.3.

Sllimeel, the pH value I'm referring to is the hypothetical pH I'd get when adding sulphuric and the right combinations if salts to meet a desired profile. Using the RO water was just to help me achieve this goal whilst using phosphoric. What I was suggesting is that could I use a second acid to further adjust pH. Hence the later replies from Martin et al.
I concur with the others, if you're overshooting pH there are a few things to check on, other than just adding more acid.
1. Are you certain of your water volume?
2. Have you checked the alkalinity prior to the brew by testing the water you are using, or are you going for a general water report?
3. Are you certain of the volume of water used?
4. Is your pH meter calibrated, and the wort you are measuring at the correct temperature

I'm sure others could chime in with other variables. I have to say, two brews with the spreadsheet and I'm hitting values pretty closely.

All excellent points captain. All I would add is that Martin has been updating issues surrounding acid addition problems in the spreadsheet so you need to ensure you have the latest version. Some of the issues discussed may have been a function of those errors. But as a check list for troubleshooting any issues someone is having Martin would do well to pinch that and use it in a separate section of the user manual. One final point is there will inherently be a margin of error when such fine margins and variables are being used , the higher the concentration of acid used the more precise the measurement needs to be, so user error rises proportionately to that.

[sllimeel]

Since switching to Phosphoric, I've been getting on ok especially as I've been diluting with RO water to help me reach the right profile.
However, the ideal solution may be using a combination of acids...
What I'm suggesting is using Sulphuric (25%, from Murphy's) to a given sulphate value combined with my liquor salt additions and then reducing the pH further as needed with phosphoric.
My question is, how do I go about calculating this? I'm using Bru'n Water at the mo and getting the pH down to about 5.55, but want it about 5.3.

Sllimeel, the pH value I'm referring to is the hypothetical pH I'd get when adding sulphuric and the right combinations if salts to meet a desired profile. Using the RO water was just to help me achieve this goal whilst using phosphoric. What I was suggesting is that could I use a second acid to further adjust pH. Hence the later replies from Martin et al.
I concur with the others, if you're overshooting pH there are a few things to check on, other than just adding more acid.
1. Are you certain of your water volume?
2. Have you checked the alkalinity prior to the brew by testing the water you are using, or are you going for a general water report?
3. Are you certain of the volume of water used?
4. Is your pH meter calibrated, and the wort you are measuring at the correct temperature

I'm sure others could chime in with other variables. I have to say, two brews with the spreadsheet and I'm hitting values pretty closely.

All excellent points captain. All I would add is that Martin has been updating issues surrounding acid addition problems in the spreadsheet so you need to ensure you have the latest version. Some of the issues discussed may have been a function of those errors. But as a check list for troubleshooting any issues someone is having Martin would do well to pinch that and use it in a separate section of the user manual. One final point is there will inherently be a margin of error when such fine margins and variables are being used , the higher the concentration of acid used the more precise the measurement needs to be, so user error rises proportionately to that.

In answer to the Cpt's checklist points: (Firstly i seem to have taken over the capt's original query, i apologise)

1. Yes rechecked the volumes on last brew
2. Was checked the on the day of water treatment with a salifert alkalinity test kit. Water Information in the spreadsheet comes from a murhphys 2012 water sample and the alkalinity is the same as that report.
3. See point 1
4. Voltec meter (same as orlando) calibrated always before taking the readings. Mash and sparge were treated seperatly the day before brewing and the PH was checked on the sparge water 6.02. Checked this again prior to heating and this had risen to 6.40! Can the PH rise over night with the acid and water reaction? Final runnings PH 5.55, Pre boil PH 5.25.

Orlando, i am using the latest spreadsheet and a use a pipette for the acid additions, as you say, such fine margins, just need to re check the additions maybe, i'm close but not enough.

Thanks all
Lee.

[orlando]

You might try diluting the acid so you can use larger quantities, dialling back the margin of error. I too overshot my predicted pH, 5.33 and got 5.41, but I put this down to my abilities with the Salifert Alkalinity test kit and the potential error this introduces, if I had left the previous alkalinity results in I reckon it would have been nigh on exact.

[sllimeel]

What was the previous alkalinity reading compared to the new one, a greater difference?

[orlando]

In March Murphy's measured it at 267 ppm. First test with Salifert it was 299 last test 289. I reiterate subject to user error. But the errors using the calculator all pointed to a rise in alkalinity so I just need to practise with the kit I think.