Water treatment

[iowalad]

Chemistry has never been a strong suit of mine.

My local water varies in carbonates from around 44 to 65mg/l. I think Aleman tries to get his under 50?

Is it worth boiling my water?

My Calcium is around 36 usually. If I understand correctly boiling will knock down my carbonates to around 35 but at the expense of much of most of my calcium.

[Vossy1]

Saying all that though, I think this should be a sticky if everyone is happy with that.

I did A level chemistry, but the posts on this thread have helped far more than any of the knowledge that I picked up all those years ago
The first few pages are invaluable for a novice approach and if anyone wants to look further, just read on

Thanks to all those in 'the know'...I can't wait to put what I've learnt into practice

[Graham]

Chemistry has never been a strong suit of mine.

My local water varies in carbonates from around 44 to 65mg/l. I think Aleman tries to get his under 50?

Is it worth boiling my water?

My Calcium is around 36 usually. If I understand correctly boiling will knock down my carbonates to around 35 but at the expense of much of most of my calcium.

It seems that it is all in the form of calcium carbonate. Doing the sums on 36 mg/l calcium gives 60.3 mg/l carbonate, so it matches your carbonate figure.

You could probably live with 60mg/l if your mash pH turns out okay.

If you boil your water you will lose most of the calcium, but you can restore it by adding gypsum.

[iowalad]

Thanks,

This thread has been most helpful!

[BarryNL]

Chemistry has never been a strong suit of mine.

My local water varies in carbonates from around 44 to 65mg/l. I think Aleman tries to get his under 50?

Is it worth boiling my water?

My Calcium is around 36 usually. If I understand correctly boiling will knock down my carbonates to around 35 but at the expense of much of most of my calcium.

It seems that it is all in the form of calcium carbonate. Doing the sums on 36 mg/l calcium gives 60.3 mg/l carbonate, so it matches your carbonate figure.

You could probably live with 60mg/l if your mash pH turns out okay.

If you boil your water you will lose most of the calcium, but you can restore it by adding gypsum.

I would have thought you'd want to use either gypsum (calcium sulphate) or calcium carbonate depending on the pH you are trying to achieve. Simply using gypsum in a dark beer would probably take the mash pH too low.

[bandit]

I thought the simple rule was carbonates <50 for pale ale and bitter and >150 for dark ales to allow the natural acidity of the dark grains to regulate the pH. Having read a few books it seems the the european brewers have been acidifying brewing liquor for years. They "sell" the fact that their water has wonderful minerals in to make it sound healthier so you buy more. Thats sales for ya !!!

[WallyBrew]

Is there anyway to improve the precipitation of salts when doing this?

Heat under 5psi of pressure for 15mins with constant agitation.

An other salts required such as gypsum are added to the liquor before boiing.

[Graham]

Aeration is good, aerate the water first. The air coming off helps to purge CO2.

Good Rolling boil. The agitation is important.

Nucliation zones, with lots of little pointy bit like sharp sand, or some other inert crystalline substance. However, I reckon a stainless-steel scruby might do the trick, and you can retrieve it afterwards. Some cheap, disposable, inert, non-soluble, crystalline substance might be better though.

[Graham]

I think i'll give that a try next time although I rarely plan brews so i'll have to see how it goes.

I wonder if kiddies play sand would be ok or possibly calcium carbonate (based on it not dissolving easily) ?

Silly Billy. Calcium carbonate is what we are trying to get out - I would not be too happy about chucking more in. I think you meant to say calcium sulphate. Yes it does help, but I thought it had more to do with chemical equilibrium stuff.

I was looking for some sort of easily obtainable sintered metal, or something like it. Then I thought of the stainless scrubby, although it may not have sharp enough points.

The ideal thing would be the sintered glass stuff, like they put into the bottom of lager glasses as nucleation zones for the bubbles to form on, so that bubbles keep coming, cos the daft buggers wont drink it if it doesn't have lots of bubbles in it. Glass in a H/B boiler - too risky, HSE and all that.

I'll have to try and find out what they use to seed sugar, to form the crystals - that'd definately work.

[Graham]

I realised it might have sounded odd but being as it is difficult to dissolve I thought it might have been ok, particularly as the intention is to end up with a load more of it at the bottom of the fermenter? Just a thought anyway.

Well it would work if it had nice sharp pointy bits like table salt, but I reckon chalk will be to soft and just go mushy.

How would that effect the gypsum levels after the boil though ?

I always put my gypsum in the water-boil anyway. My standard water treatment is to boil it and add 12g of gypsum during the boil. It has worked well in all the places that I've lived since brewing: Slough, Ringwood, Wycombe. I've never added gypsum to the mash tun - never needed to.

If you mean after the wort boil, it won't make any difference.

[WallyBrew]

The following is taken from Brewing science and practice by Herbert Lloyd Hind. (The bible of the era). I have added the figures in parenthesis.

However it may only leave you in a permanent quandary.

(355) Decarbonation by Boiling.

The ions in solution in a carbonate water are HCO3 and Ca and or Mg. The bicarbonate ions are converted into CO3 and undissociated H2O and CO2 by boiling, but removal of the carbonates by precipitation in this way, according to the equation:

Ca(HCO3)2 = CaCO3 + H2O + CO2

is never complete on account of the slight solubility of CaCO3 and the much greater solubility of MgCO3. Their solubilities vary with the temperature but that of calcium carbonate may be taken as about 2.2 parts per 100,000 (22mg/l) at ordinary temperatures, while magnesium carbonate is soluble in cold water to the extent of about 10 parts per 100,000 (100mg/l), but is rather less soluble at higher temperatures, so that boiling under pressure is more effective in precipitating it. The calcium carbonate content of water is rarely reduced below 4 or 5 parts per 100,000 (40-50mg/l) and may remain at 10 or 20 parts per 100,000 (100-200mg/l) after boiling for half an hour under atmospheric pressure, while the magnesium carbonate content may show very little reduction. The relative proportions of calcium, magnesium and sodium present materially affect the equilibrium reached. Increase of the calcium ratio by addition of calcium chloride or sulphate increases the precipitation of calcium carbonate in presence of magnesium and sodium, but very variable results are obtained with different waters.. The solubility of magnesium carbonate makes it necessary to convert it into the almost insoluble hydroxide by chemical means, when as complete removal as possible is required for boiler or other purposes.

With respect to sugar it is seeded with crystals of dextrose, it is general to start crystallization with a crystal of that which you are trying to crystallize.

[oblivious]

Is there anyway to improve the precipitation of salts when doing this?

I have heard of people adding Calcium to water to speed up the precipitation

[Aleman]

The classic German 'Reinheitsgebot' method of reducing carbonates is to boil with slaked line (Calcium hydroxide???). Of course here you are increasing the calcium content of the liquor, (which increases precipitaion of calcium carbonate), but merely adding OH- anions, thereby not increasing the mineral balance of the water drastically.

Again its not simply a case of bunging in a handful of Calcium Hydroxide into the liquor, you only add enough calcium hydroxide to neutralise the alkalinity, which means you must know the alkalinity of the water you are treating not what the water authority said it was 10 months ago when they measured it once!

[bandit]

Is there any way of using a pH meter to calculate the alkalinity of the liquor. If you are neutralsing the alkalinity what pH would that be, 7.0 pH? Or do I have to buy an accurate alkalinity test kit to determine the value.

I am slightly confused as I thought pH was a measure of acidity against alkalinity

[Aleman]

I am slightly confused as I thought pH was a measure of acidity against alkalinity

pH is the negative log (to base 10) of the hydrogen ion concentration.

I appreciate your confusion as chemsits are fond of using the term alkalinity as a measurement of the buffering power of the water, adn it is so similar to alkaline (Which in true chemical terms is what happens when a base is dissolved in water . . . The water becomes more basic (The true oppopsite of acidic) or more alkaline)

The only way I am aware of to measure the total alkalinity of the water is to titrate against a known acid solution, which in effect is what the Palintest Total Alkalinity Test Kit does. . . . However the second (and more economical) method of using it helps you determine the correct amount of acid to reduce your alkalinity to below 50ppm