Water treatment
-
bandit
-
bandit
-
Graham
Yes, if you have a good pH meter and some acid of known molarity (strength), you can titrate a sample of water to pH 4.3 and calculate the alkalinity by the amount of acid needed to reach pH 4.3. I haven't done it for years, so I've forgotten the maths.bandit wrote:Is there any way of using a pH meter to calculate the alkalinity of the liquor. If you are neutralsing the alkalinity what pH would that be, 7.0 pH? Or do I have to buy an accurate alkalinity test kit to determine the value.
I am slightly confused as I thought pH was a measure of acidity against alkalinity
](./images/smilies/eusa_wall.gif "Brick wall"){kind=small}
In this application alkalinity does not mean, is not the same as alkaline. They are different.
[EDIT}
Basically that is all that Palintest do, except that they use an indicator solution instead of a pH meter.
The Palintest "M" reagent (methyl orange) is the one you want. It changes colour at pH 4.3. [/EDIT
-
bandit
I have an excellent pH meter that has a seperate temperature probe attached to calculate pH to three decimal places. So if I titrate down to 4.3 that will telll me my initial level of alkalinity. So theoretically, if i now know my initial alkalinity level and I want to drop it from say 150mg/l to 30 mg/l then a simple calculation to determine the volume of acid that needs to be added should be able to be calculated.
All I need now is the maths
All I need now is the maths
Using 250ml of water and acid of 0.1N ( that is 0.1M hydrochloric or 0.05M sulphuric) each 1ml of the acid is equivalent to 20mg/l when expressed as calcium carbonate. Methyl orange is a good indicator but the colour change is from orange to red, so the one to use is screened methyl orange (a mix of methyl orange and bromocresol green in varying proportions) This changes from green/blue through a sort of grey to red at pH less than 4.3ish.
To answer Bandits question P alkalinity is the alkalinity that ia neutralised by acid to Phenolphthalein (circa pH8.2) - M alkalinity is the alkalinity that is neutralised by acid to methyl orange (pH 4.2 - 4.5)
From the respective results you can calculate the alkalinity due to hydroxide (OH) the alkalinity due to carbonate. The titration to phenolphthalein neutralises all the hydroxide and half the carbonate, the titration from here on neutralises all the bicarbonate.
You should not have to worry about the P alkalinity as water should be less than pH 9
My water alkalinity was 211 as calcium carbonate on 10th Jan 2008.
To answer Bandits question P alkalinity is the alkalinity that ia neutralised by acid to Phenolphthalein (circa pH8.2) - M alkalinity is the alkalinity that is neutralised by acid to methyl orange (pH 4.2 - 4.5)
From the respective results you can calculate the alkalinity due to hydroxide (OH) the alkalinity due to carbonate. The titration to phenolphthalein neutralises all the hydroxide and half the carbonate, the titration from here on neutralises all the bicarbonate.
You should not have to worry about the P alkalinity as water should be less than pH 9
My water alkalinity was 211 as calcium carbonate on 10th Jan 2008.
-
bandit
http://www.cee.ucf.edu/classes/ees4202/lab03.htm
or this one is even longer
http://www.epa.gov/volunteer/stream/vms510.html
La de La de La DAAA !!!!!
At least I have found another use for my yeast stirrer plate machine. I have now gone from 6 hours to make a beer to 6 days what with yeast propogation, starter cultures and water testing, it better bloody taste fantastic next time
or this one is even longer
http://www.epa.gov/volunteer/stream/vms510.html
La de La de La DAAA !!!!!
At least I have found another use for my yeast stirrer plate machine. I have now gone from 6 hours to make a beer to 6 days what with yeast propogation, starter cultures and water testing, it better bloody taste fantastic next time
Do you have standardised acids - if so what strength type (hydrochloric sulphuric etc)Bandit wrote: I have an excellent pH meter that has a seperate temperature probe attached to calculate pH to three decimal places. So if I titrate down to 4.3 that will telll me my initial level of alkalinity. So theoretically, if i now know my initial alkalinity level and I want to drop it from say 150mg/l to 30 mg/l then a simple calculation to determine the volume of acid that needs to be added should be able to be calculated.
All I need now is the maths
Do you have a burette
Do you have any standard volume measuring equipment?
Don't know what your pH meter looks like but here's mine
If you list them then I'm sure we can work out the maths
Most important - do you have any buffers for standardising your excellent pH meter?
-
bandit
-
RabMaxwell
Hello all water treatment again as you know i have been experimenting with water treatment for a while now. I have done quite a few bitters with different amounts of minerals i have settled on Ca/120 Mg/10 Na/40 S04/300 CL/50 Hc03 / 25. With this i am getting a bitter with good malt flavour & also good hop bitterness/flavour quite balanced. Murphy's figures for a bitter were higher S04/400 CL/200 this was the most intense malty brew i have ever made must have been the high level of Chloride. Anyway i am now going to have a run of Scottish Ales with water treatment then after that it will be Pale Ales. I want to incorporate the intense malty flavour in a scottish ale i got with Murphy's high CL/200 level i got in the bitter but i still want a bit of hop flavour/aroma.Murphy's suggestions for Scottish Ale is Ca/180-200 CL / 250-300 S04/200 Alkalinity < 70 Murphy's don't mention levels for Mg or Na.Ray Daniels designing great beers say's use water high in calcium sodium carbonate & chloride but low in sulfate not to sure about the high in carbonate bit though. Can any of you knowledgeable water experts out there like to comment on what would be a good target mineral composition to try
-
Dan
good thread guys
In the past ive been making salt adjustments to the mash and HLT
the mash pH was always higher than optimal and some beers cleared better than others the quality was very hit and miss. I think maybe a lot of my salt was not making it into the boiler.
lagers i made at the time used lactic acid malt. these brews hit 5.2 in the mash. they tasted better and cleared much faster.
now i make an acid adjustment for carbonate reduction in both the mash and HLT then add a portion of the salts to the mash and another portion to the Boil before the hop additions. I feel the beers have improved in all aspects. but they dont clear as fast or taste as crisp as some people suggest they could.
I might not be adding enough calcium (anhydrous good point)
I dont fully understand the acid treatment though. In practice i heat my water to 20C and take a pH reading (usually about 7.0 - 7.5)
I then add acid using a pippet whilst stirring. I measure the pH and stop when the level falls bellow 6.0. Unfortunately the resulting mash pH is still running high at 5.5-5.6
I dont want to over acidify my water but is there still too much Carbonate hardness? Do i need to let it rest longer and repeat the process ? how much stirring is required to help the reaction of Carbonate to form H2O and CO2?
In the past ive been making salt adjustments to the mash and HLT
the mash pH was always higher than optimal and some beers cleared better than others the quality was very hit and miss. I think maybe a lot of my salt was not making it into the boiler.
lagers i made at the time used lactic acid malt. these brews hit 5.2 in the mash. they tasted better and cleared much faster.
now i make an acid adjustment for carbonate reduction in both the mash and HLT then add a portion of the salts to the mash and another portion to the Boil before the hop additions. I feel the beers have improved in all aspects. but they dont clear as fast or taste as crisp as some people suggest they could.
I might not be adding enough calcium (anhydrous good point)
I dont fully understand the acid treatment though. In practice i heat my water to 20C and take a pH reading (usually about 7.0 - 7.5)
I then add acid using a pippet whilst stirring. I measure the pH and stop when the level falls bellow 6.0. Unfortunately the resulting mash pH is still running high at 5.5-5.6
I dont want to over acidify my water but is there still too much Carbonate hardness? Do i need to let it rest longer and repeat the process ? how much stirring is required to help the reaction of Carbonate to form H2O and CO2?
Dan
As per my post above for Bandit. List what acids etc equipment you have and working out what to do is possible.
I determine my alkalinity with 0.1 molar hydrochloric acid using screened methyl orange as an indicator and then adjust the mash and sparge liquor with 25% by vol sulphuric acid to achieve 25mg/l calcium carbonate. For my water this is about pH 5.6. But the pH will shift as carbon dioxide is removed from the system so giving a definitive pH for the residual carbonate is not strictly possible.
In order to work anything out you do need to know the strength of the acid you are adding and the volume of liquor you are treating.
As per my post above for Bandit. List what acids etc equipment you have and working out what to do is possible.
I determine my alkalinity with 0.1 molar hydrochloric acid using screened methyl orange as an indicator and then adjust the mash and sparge liquor with 25% by vol sulphuric acid to achieve 25mg/l calcium carbonate. For my water this is about pH 5.6. But the pH will shift as carbon dioxide is removed from the system so giving a definitive pH for the residual carbonate is not strictly possible.
In order to work anything out you do need to know the strength of the acid you are adding and the volume of liquor you are treating.
-
Dan
lets say in this scenario
the volume of water treated is 50L
the acid type brupaks CRS or 80% lactic acid
the pH of the water is 7.2
and an estimated alkalinity from the water board might fall in the region of 50 -80 ppm
the target alkalinity is 25 ppm
the pH meter is callibrated with buffering solutions.
sorry i cant provide anymore information about the acids
these are probably some very dumb questions but......
when you talk about the CO2 being removed from the system, what sort of time frame are we looking at here? do i need to stand this water for any length of time or will splashing it around do the trick?
will my pH rise once the CO2 is gone?
when the alkalinity is down to 25-30ppm what sort of mash pH will this water provide, just a ball park figure?
the volume of water treated is 50L
the acid type brupaks CRS or 80% lactic acid
the pH of the water is 7.2
and an estimated alkalinity from the water board might fall in the region of 50 -80 ppm
the target alkalinity is 25 ppm
the pH meter is callibrated with buffering solutions.
sorry i cant provide anymore information about the acids
these are probably some very dumb questions but......
when you talk about the CO2 being removed from the system, what sort of time frame are we looking at here? do i need to stand this water for any length of time or will splashing it around do the trick?
will my pH rise once the CO2 is gone?
when the alkalinity is down to 25-30ppm what sort of mash pH will this water provide, just a ball park figure?
