New water treatment calculator

[Graham]

Ironically Graham, that's probably one of the only bits of brewing software I would be willing to shell out money on, particularly if it was coupled with your water calculator.

The basic water calculator idea was for the "Beer Engine" (notice the yellow and khaki heritage). It had been forming in my mind for some time before writing it. I chose to write it first in JavaScript and thus make it browser-based, because of some interesting threads that were going on here, and it rejuvenated my enthusiasm for it. Of course the water widget will be incorporated into the beer engine - I can't leave out something that has been received with almost universal acclaim. The Beer Engine version will have a few more bells and whistles attached, due to limitations in JavaScript and browsers, but it will certainly be there.

[buzzrtbi]

thanks for sending that over to me Graham. Very generous of you and a great piece of programming.

[BarrowBoy]

Just a quick question here:

In the 'Volume to be treated' bit should I be entering: a) the volume of water in the mash
b) the total volume of water used
c) the target volume

[Graham]

Just a quick question here:
In the 'Volume to be treated' bit should I be entering: a) the volume of water in the mash
b) the total volume of water used
c) the target volume

Definitely not c.

a or b is a matter of personal choice and whether you add the salts to the mash or to the water; people can discuss the pro and cons of that for hours.

In my case I treat the whole lot; so for me it is total volume.

[BarrowBoy]

Thanks Graham - full volume it is then - provided I can get my sweaty paws on some Calcium Chloride by tomorrow.

[Jim]

Thanks Graham - full volume it is then - provided I can get my sweaty paws on some Calcium Chloride by tomorrow.

I always used to find that getting gypsum to dissolve properly was difficult. I used to add a couple of spoonfuls to a 5 gal fermenter and give it a vigourous stirring. By the next day, most of it had settled at the bottom of the fermenter!

I had a try the other day at mixing Gypsum and CaCl into a litre of water by using a blender. It's a lot easier to get the salts into solution that way, and I reckon you can get enough dissolved in a litre or two to treat 5 gallons. You then just add the strong solution to the bulk of the liquor.

[Graham]

Thanks Graham - full volume it is then - provided I can get my sweaty paws on some Calcium Chloride by tomorrow.

I always used to find that getting gypsum to dissolve properly was difficult. I used to add a couple of spoonfuls to a 5 gal fermenter and give it a vigourous stirring. By the next day, most of it had settled at the bottom of the fermenter!

I had a try the other day at mixing Gypsum and CaCl into a litre of water by using a blender. It's a lot easier to get the salts into solution that way, and I reckon you can get enough dissolved in a litre or two to treat 5 gallons. You then just add the strong solution to the bulk of the liquor.

Yes, getting calcium sulphate into solution isn't easy. I always boil so, with all the agitation involved, and presumably the high temperature, it is much easier. I tend to forget that there are people who are lucky enough to not need to reduce carbonate.

Using a blender is a brilliant idea. I wonder if a hand-held electric whisk would also work. It would be more convenient, easier, and brewers could have their very own, exclusive whisk. Argos do a five-speed, dual whizzy-thing, electric whisk for £3.96. Ruddy incredible! I couldn't get the packaging made in this country for that price.

[brale]

Thanks so much Graham - great piece of software.

A few comments:

A vote for keeping water hardness box: I have BOTH hardness and alkalinity readings, but no calcium reading, and so use the hardness to calculate calcium. I guess this calculation is trivial, so it wouldn't be a big deal if you removed it, but it's nice to have it.

Would be great to have a DLS option, as others have suggested.

A query:

The Brupaks water treatment website has the following suggestions for water profiles for different styles:

Bitter and Pale Ale. Alkalinity as CaC03 - up to 50 p.p.m. Calcium - 180 to 220 p.p.m.

Mild Ale. Alkalinity as CaC03 - 100 to 150 p.p.m. Calcium - 90 to 110 p.p.m.

Porter and Stout. Alkalinity as CaC03 - 100 to 150 p.p.m. Calcium - 100 to 120 p.p.m.

Pale Lager. Alkalinity as CaC03 - up to 30 p.p.m. Calcium - 100 to 120 p.p.m.

I just wondered why their alkalinity (carbonate) suggestions are so different to your software's suggestions. Your software suggests removing all carbonates, and then adjusting calcium, sulphate and choride for different beer styles. Brupaks seem to suggest keeping a high level of carbonates for dark ales, presumably to balance the acidity inherent in the malt.

I wondered whether you might be able to clear up my confusion! Thanks again.

[eskimobob]

Definitely not c.

a or b is a matter of personal choice and whether you add the salts to the mash or to the water; people can discuss the pro and cons of that for hours.

In my case I treat the whole lot; so for me it is total volume.

Can I just get you to clarify something.

If I add the salts to the HLT containing the total liquor I intend using, I guess I enter that volume in your tool (I usually start with about 30 litres).

However, if I plan on adding the salts to the grist before mashing then should the figure I use for volume be the quantity of mash liquor? (this might be about 8 or 9 litres).

[prolix]

I vote for keeping the hardness as I believe (still waiting on ESWATER to reply to quality request) that to be the only thing in my water 290 mg/l CaCO3 and 115 mg/l Ca. But as I boil the chalk out it does not really matter to me anyway.

[Graham]

Definitely not c.

a or b is a matter of personal choice and whether you add the salts to the mash or to the water; people can discuss the pro and cons of that for hours.

In my case I treat the whole lot; so for me it is total volume.

Can I just get you to clarify something.

If I add the salts to the HLT containing the total liquor I intend using, I guess I enter that volume in your tool (I usually start with about 30 litres).

However, if I plan on adding the salts to the grist before mashing then should the figure I use for volume be the quantity of mash liquor? (this might be about 8 or 9 litres).

That's right. Do a calculation for the mash liquor so that the mash gets it's correct dose. Do another calculation for the rest and add it to the copper. That is what most people do, particularly if they are using CRS.

[Doingatun]

Hi,

Help please…Just checking…trying to get my head around water treatment not easy don't want to mess up next brew, just received my ordered goodies.

My local water report

Calcium 7.8 mgCal/l
Magnesium 1.28 mg mg/l
Sodium 4.98 mg Na/l
Calcium Carbonate 22.7 ?
Sulphate 8.19 mg So4/l
Cholride 6.88mg Cl/l
Alkalinity 13.4 ?

Am I using Graham's excellent work correctly...confused with Calcium Carbonate and Alkalinity, I’ve entered Alkalinity13.4 as CaCo3 only in the top boxes which auto enters Carbonate CO3 as 8.03

Treating full 35 Litres for Bitter gives additions

11.86g Calcium Sulphate
14.58g Calcium Chloride
1.32g Magnesium Sulphate

I take it it's ok to use Campden tabs as usual with the extra water treatment?

Cheers

[Graham]

Hi,

Help please…Just checking…trying to get my head around water treatment not easy don't want to mess up next brew, just received my ordered goodies.

My local water report

Calcium 7.8 mgCal/l
Magnesium 1.28 mg mg/l
Sodium 4.98 mg Na/l
Calcium Carbonate 22.7 ?
Sulphate 8.19 mg So4/l
Cholride 6.88mg Cl/l
Alkalinity 13.4 ?

Am I using Graham's excellent work correctly...confused with Calcium Carbonate and Alkalinity, I’ve entered Alkalinity13.4 as CaCo3 only in the top boxes which auto enters Carbonate CO3 as 8.03

Treating full 35 Litres for Bitter gives additions

11.86g Calcium Sulphate
14.58g Calcium Chloride
1.32g Magnesium Sulphate

I take it it's ok to use Campden tabs as usual with the extra water treatment?

Cheers

It looks fine. It is a bit odd that you have a figure for carbonate and a figure for alkalinity, and they are different, but the alkalinity one makes most sense.

Yes it is fine to use Campden tablets.

[Doingatun]

Many Thanks Graham…I was getting lost with the differing carbonate and alkalinity figures these being advised by the water quality lab on the phone?, the rest of the info was available on there website.

Think I’ll order a Daab Test Kit

Cheers

[brale]

Sorry to repost this, but I'm still confused, and if anyone has any insight I would be really grateful!

The Brupaks water treatment website has the following suggestions for water profiles for different styles:

Bitter and Pale Ale. Alkalinity as CaC03 - up to 50 p.p.m. Calcium - 180 to 220 p.p.m.

Mild Ale. Alkalinity as CaC03 - 100 to 150 p.p.m. Calcium - 90 to 110 p.p.m.

Porter and Stout. Alkalinity as CaC03 - 100 to 150 p.p.m. Calcium - 100 to 120 p.p.m.

Pale Lager. Alkalinity as CaC03 - up to 30 p.p.m. Calcium - 100 to 120 p.p.m.

I just wondered why their alkalinity (carbonate) suggestions are so different to your software's suggestions. Your software suggests removing all carbonates, and then adjusting calcium, sulphate and choride for different beer styles. Brupaks seem to suggest keeping a high level of carbonates for dark ales, presumably to balance the acidity inherent in the malt.

I wondered whether you might be able to clear up my confusion! Thanks again for a great piece of software.