New water treatment calculator

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
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Graham

Re: New water treatment calculator

Post by Graham » Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:50 pm

RabMaxwell wrote:I have done a similar one as you give for Edinburgh water & wasn't keen on it that's a lot of sodium & i would never add that much carbonate to any brew .Cheers
That is a good illustration as to why I removed the area water profiles from the later version of the water treatment calculator. The brewers could not have brewed with many of the water profiles that are given in the tables published in both commercial and home brewing references. In lots of cases it would have been impossible to brew a clear beer using some of these published water compositions directly. However, it was standard practice for old-time brewers to boil their water prior to using it and this would have reduced the carbonate. The compositions I gave for these areas in the calculator was the composition after this boil had taken place - the water they actually brewed with. This caused a number of people to question why my figures did not match other people's figures.

Some profiles throw up anomalies too when you look into them. Edinburgh is a good example of that. The Edinburgh brewers would not have been able to brew anything decent with that much carbonate in it, but after a boil there will be next to no calcium left, which again does not make for a clear pale ale with benefit of modern wisdom.

This leads me to conclude that either these figures are in error (they mostly stem from Victorian measurements); or the brewers used some other source of water (spring or river); or Edinburgh beer (among others) was nowhere near as good as it was cracked up to be.

Anyway, I removed the area profiles because they are too misleading.

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Aleman
It's definitely Lock In Time
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Re: New water treatment calculator

Post by Aleman » Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:12 pm

It also goes to show that trying to match an actual published water profile is a complete and utter waste of time.

Adjust the Alkalinity / Carbonate then tweak the Hardness (boost the calcium) is pretty much all that needs / should be done . . . Of course with some waters one or other (or both :) ) of these things can be tricky

Whorst

Re: New water treatment calculator

Post by Whorst » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:32 pm

You've got to be careful in reducing carbonates. The addition of gypsum and calcium chloride will also lower residual alkalinity.

Whorst

Re: New water treatment calculator

Post by Whorst » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:38 am

What's impossible Chris? The German brewing scientist, Kolbach found out that only 2 out 7 calcium ions and 1 out of 7 magnesium ions react with the malts phosphates to release hydronium ions, thus the definition of residual alkalinity. Residual Alkalinity is the measure of bicarbonate concentration left over after the acidifying reaction between the malt's phosphates and the water's calcium and magnesium has been taken into account. So, when one adds gypsum, you will lower the residual alkalinity of your mash. The equation for determining residual alkalinity is:
Residual Alkalinity (RA) = Alkalinity - Ca / 3.5 - Mg / 7, where all are in ppm as CaCO3

RabMaxwell

Re: New water treatment calculator

Post by RabMaxwell » Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:57 am

Hello all i want to try adding a little Calcium Carbonate for a few brews using Mr Wheelers water calculator.My Alkalinity is very low 8.8 As HC03 & i can often get a low mash Ph of 4.9. Would 25mg/L of Cardonate for a pale Bitter & 50 mg/L for a darker Bitter be a good starting point.At what point would carbonate start getting detrimental to my beers

chris_reboot

Re: New water treatment calculator

Post by chris_reboot » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:36 pm

not sure where to get s04 readings from?

here's my water quality report, but can't see the s04, am I missing something?
http://www.yorkshirewater.com/extra-ser ... =hd8%208dw

For a 30L amount, it's (currently) saying (without the s04 value set) that I need 13g calcium sulphate, 2.5 calcium chloride, 2.33 mg sulphate and 2.25 sodium chloride (presume household salt is ok here?)
I hope that sounds right.
This is all a bit confusing to someone who barely stayed awake in chemistry at school!

My input values are:
7.91 alkalinity
CRS method (default 20)
18 hardness CaCO3
25.79 Ca
2.35 Mg
10.47 Na
3.89 CO3
0.2 CL
--- SO4 ???

Bitter profile used.

TIA,
Chris

chris_reboot

Re: New water treatment calculator

Post by chris_reboot » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:31 pm

ok, maybe I need to dig a bit deeper into the PDF linked on the right of that page then!
that has min/max/mean values.

...wait..I see what you mean now. didn't realise you'd read the pdf as well!
seen the SO4 on p4 you mentioned 28.24 is the mean value, so I'll go with that.

Total alkalinity I took from not the PDF, but the main web page I linked. I used the "pH (Hydrogen Ion Conc.)" value.
Is this not right?

Thanks Chris.

RabMaxwell

Re: New water treatment calculator

Post by RabMaxwell » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:37 am

Am i correct that Mr Wheelers water calculator won't calculate adding carbonate above 20ppm or have i done something wrong with the calculation .I was brewing today with my extremely soft Ayrshire water with 8.8 HC03 carbonate i usually get a low mash ph when i bother to check Ph 4.9 using Vinoferm strips. I used Mr Wheelers dry pale ale setting but changed the C03 figure from 15 to 25ppm & it gave a 4g addition for my 122 litre brew.When i checked my ph it was still 4.9 as usual so i added another 6g of chalk to the mash but it still gave 4.9 after a 10 minutes rest :evil: .I tried checking with Wr Wheelers calculator to find out how many ppm of carbonate i added by adding another 6g of chalk but it won't go above a 4g addition :o .I managed to calculate it out using Promash it puts the 10g chalk addition at about 40ppm.It look's like i need slightly more than 10g of chalk to get to ph 5.2 but is there a way to calculate it using Wheelers water calculator as i was enjoying using it up until now :( .

RabMaxwell

Re: New water treatment calculator

Post by RabMaxwell » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:45 am

I am adding the chalk with the grain in the mash to get it into solution :D As for the dry pale ale setting i am changing the C03 from wheelers 15ppm setting if set at 25ppm it gives an addition of about 4g of chalk for my brew length.But if i put in a higher C03 figure even dubbling it to 50ppm say it still gives an addition of about 4g

RabMaxwell

Re: New water treatment calculator

Post by RabMaxwell » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:47 am

Yes the warning box is giving (Your final and target liqour differs by greater than 10%)

RabMaxwell

Re: New water treatment calculator

Post by RabMaxwell » Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:26 am

I am putting in a target figure but i am changing Wheelers target C03 figure for dry pale ale from his 15ppm for my higher figure but it won't calculate properly adding anymore than 25ppm of carbonate.Hope this makes sense.Anyway going to skim my fermenter as it's going mental & i dont want to loose too much beer through my blow-off tube.Then i am going to bed cheers :D

Graham

Re: New water treatment calculator

Post by Graham » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:56 am

RabMaxwell wrote:I am putting in a target figure but i am changing Wheelers target C03 figure for dry pale ale from his 15ppm for my higher figure but it won't calculate properly adding anymore than 25ppm of carbonate.Hope this makes sense.Anyway going to skim my fermenter as it's going mental & i dont want to loose too much beer through my blow-off tube.Then i am going to bed cheers :D
That is because the carbonate has to be bonded to something, calcium usually. The target water must represent a balanced water, so just adding carbonate as an ion will not work once it runs out of calcium to bond to. To increase the carbonate you must increase the calcium as well. Once you have added your increased carbonate figure, you can then increase the calcium figure until the "Target Ion Balance" figures match.

Alternatively add 3.34 mg/l of calcium for every 5 mg/l of additional carbonate.

RabMaxwell

Re: New water treatment calculator

Post by RabMaxwell » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:59 am

Graham wrote:[quote="
Alternatively add 3.34 mg/l of calcium for every 5 mg/l of additional carbonate.
Cheers done this Graham & it seems to have worked =D> this puts my calcium at 207ppm with my C03 at 40ppm with the chalk addition i added .Shouldn't 40ppm of carbonate have been enough to raise my mash ph as it still stayed at 4.9 ph :evil: or did i add it wrong :?: I did two calculations for two additions 80 litres for the mash & 93 litres for the boiler addition but i added the two carbonate additions to the mash. :D

fullmash

Re: New water treatment calculator

Post by fullmash » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:49 pm

I used this Calculator with no bother at all ,once you get the required information of your water supplier It,s easy ,Mind you thats if you can get this info as i have hhave been told some do not like giving this out .
Just as a point of intrest is it illigal for water suppliers to withold this info
Thanks for any help on this
FullMash :=P

Belto
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Location: Bristol

Re: New water treatment calculator

Post by Belto » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:33 am

I have quickly scanned the postings and yet to find any one who has benefited from treating their local water supply.

Have I missed something? or is the resulting beer better

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