Treating Water With a High Alkalinity for Brewing

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
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Texy
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Re: Treating Water With a High Alkalinity for Brewing

Post by Texy » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:24 pm

For Thames Water, you can enter your postcode here for a report :
http://www.thameswater.co.uk/your-account/16245.htm

Texy
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Padalac

Re: Treating Water With a High Alkalinity for Brewing

Post by Padalac » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:47 am

I did that, but it doesn't give alkalinity unfortunately!

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Texy
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Re: Treating Water With a High Alkalinity for Brewing

Post by Texy » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:49 pm

No, but it does tell you "Total Hardness as CaCO3", which is what is used to calculate CRS and DLS additions according to Brupaks website:
http://www.brupaks.com/water%20treatment.htm

Texy
Drinking : AG#1 Ridley's IPA - only 1 bottle left.
Drinking : AG#2 Grahame Wheelers Fullers ESB - plenty left.
Drinking : AG#3 Grahame Wheelers Marstons Pedigree - improving with age
Drinking : AG#4 TT Landlord - my best brew yet, only a few bottles left
In the FV : Ringwood XXXX Porter
Planning - another go at Ridley's probably

Padalac

Re: Treating Water With a High Alkalinity for Brewing

Post by Padalac » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:27 pm

I thought that the total hardness is a different measure to total alkalinity even if they are both indicated as CACO3, and that it is total alkalinity not just total hardness which is important for mash pH.. I had the following data:

chloride as Cl low 47 high 57 avg 51 mg/l
sodium as Na : 31- 38 avg 35 mg/l
sulphate as SO4 : 50-54 avg 52 mg/l
total hardness as CACO3 275-279 avg 277 mg/l

i have received this after emailing them:

Mr padalac
Thank you for writing to us. I’ve tried calling you today but I wasn’t able to reach you.

The information on our online water quality report covers all of our regulatory parameters, which we sample for. If you can’t find the parameters you’re looking for, it’ll be because we don’t monitor for this.

I can advise, the Magnesium is between 20 -50mg/l and Calcium is 112mg/l.

You can get a commercial sample by going to the United Kingdom Accreditation Services (UKAS) website

www.ukas.com. Here you’ll find a list of accredited laboratories.
If you need to speak with me again regarding this matter, please call me on 08457 200897. We are open between the hours of 8am and 5pm, Monday to Friday. If I am unavailable when you call then you can either leave a message for me or one of my colleagues will be pleased to assist.
Yours sincerely

Geoffrey Parker

Customer Insight & Resolution

-------------------------------

now john palmer's guide on water treatments is telling me i need a figure in HCO3 or CACO3 for total alkalinity, as well as the chloride, sulphate and magnesium, so i can calculate the residual alkalinity.

from what i understand the total hardness as CACO3 is based on calcium and magnesium, not the bicarbonates.. and its actually the figure for bicarbonates which is buffering the pH - not the figure for hardness,, I'm confused as to how to calculate my residual alkalinity without the measure of bicarbonates.

I've read that you can calculate the amount of bicarbonate if it is not listed by checking the balance of ions as anions vs cations in the water. Might give that a go!

Padalac

Re: Treating Water With a High Alkalinity for Brewing

Post by Padalac » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:32 pm

quick update.. I calculated the bicarbonate with using the ion balance method.. came out as 455 mg/l.. giving me a total alkalinity of 373 and a residual alkalinity of 272.. incidentally - this was the same ballpark figure as the quoted total hardness (277) from the report.. now I don't know ! but in any case I will run with this figure :)

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Re: Treating Water With a High Alkalinity for Brewing

Post by Dave S » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:51 pm

Padalac wrote:quick update.. I calculated the bicarbonate with using the ion balance method.. came out as 455 mg/l.. giving me a total alkalinity of 373 and a residual alkalinity of 272.. incidentally - this was the same ballpark figure as the quoted total hardness (277) from the report.. now I don't know ! but in any case I will run with this figure :)
You could also use the Salifert alkalinity test kit. It costs less than a tenner and lasts ages. A lot of people here use this and it's reckoned to be one of the best testing kits available, (at a sensible price that is).
Best wishes

Dave

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mabrungard
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Re: Treating Water With a High Alkalinity for Brewing

Post by mabrungard » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:39 am

Total Hardness is equal to the sum of Permanent Hardness and Temporary Hardness. Temporary Hardness is due solely to alkalinity (bicarbonate) and the Ca or Mg associated with it. When both temporary hardness and alkalinity are expressed "as CaCO3", then temporary hardness is equal to alkalinity.
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Re: Treating Water With a High Alkalinity for Brewing

Post by Aleman » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:24 am

Dave S wrote:
Padalac wrote:quick update.. I calculated the bicarbonate with using the ion balance method.. came out as 455 mg/l.. giving me a total alkalinity of 373 and a residual alkalinity of 272.. incidentally - this was the same ballpark figure as the quoted total hardness (277) from the report.. now I don't know ! but in any case I will run with this figure :)
You could also use the Salifert alkalinity test kit. It costs less than a tenner and lasts ages. A lot of people here use this and it's reckoned to be one of the best testing kits available, (at a sensible price that is).
+1 Dave,

I really do not understand why people try and estimate / calculate alkalinity from Hardness, calcium whatsit, magnesium doobree, Time of High water in Hong Kong (all of which are probably estimated and averaged :roll: ). . . . when it is a two minute test to get a definitive answer . . .Ok so it costs you 7 quid odd for the test kit . . . for 100 tests . . . I mean really, why make it hard for yourself

get a test kit and do it yourself!!!

crookedeyeboy

Re: Treating Water With a High Alkalinity for Brewing

Post by crookedeyeboy » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:42 am

Just my opinion but I found the Salifert kits highly inaccurate due to the rubbish syringe you get with them.

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Re: Treating Water With a High Alkalinity for Brewing

Post by Dave S » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:13 pm

crookedeyeboy wrote:Just my opinion but I found the Salifert kits highly inaccurate due to the rubbish syringe you get with them.
S'pose you could always buy a better syringe, preferably a glass one. I've just bought a 1ml glass pipette which I'm intending to use for the test. Still getting the hang of using it accurately.
Best wishes

Dave

chrisr

Re: Treating Water With a High Alkalinity for Brewing

Post by chrisr » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:04 pm

You can get an analysis of the brew-related factors in your water from Murphys, for £18. http://www.murphyhomebrew.com/laborator ... d_104.html.

I believe they can also do a fuller analysis, intended for professional brewers. I've met the bloke from Murphys who is, I think, their main home brew 'contact', he's a home brewer. He seemed very obliging, so if you want an analysis of a particular item, give them a ring, they may well do it for you.

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Re: Treating Water With a High Alkalinity for Brewing

Post by orlando » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:18 am

chrisr wrote:You can get an analysis of the brew-related factors in your water from Murphys, for £18. http://www.murphyhomebrew.com/laborator ... d_104.html.

I believe they can also do a fuller analysis, intended for professional brewers. I've met the bloke from Murphys who is, I think, their main home brew 'contact', he's a home brewer. He seemed very obliging, so if you want an analysis of a particular item, give them a ring, they may well do it for you.
He is, on all counts and you'll find him two posts above yours :D

You can now get an Alkalinity checker from Hanna instruments too, way more expensive than a Salifert kit but incredibly simple to use. The Salifert is more user/instrument dependent it's true but I've found it to be close enough to the Hanna so if your budget is tight go for the Salifert AT LEAST. If you have more money than sense :whistle: go for the Hanna.
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Re: Treating Water With a High Alkalinity for Brewing

Post by barneey » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:47 am

Could you remind me what the difference in reading you got with the Hanna meter using/not using the chlorine removeal liquid stuff.

Cheers

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Re: Treating Water With a High Alkalinity for Brewing

Post by orlando » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:07 am

barneey wrote:Could you remind me what the difference in reading you got with the Hanna meter using/not using the chlorine removeal liquid stuff.

Cheers
Tiny, a few parts per million. You concluded it wasn't worth it and I tend to agree. It might matter to a lab but not to brewers. I have to say I was really annoyed and right royally fecked about by Hanna (UK).
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