Harsh side effect of pH treatment!

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
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Harsh side effect of pH treatment!

Post by Jim » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:42 am

I've always had a problem with low mash pH (over-acidic) so I've been experimenting with using calcium carbonate to correct it.

My latest brew was a fairly standard bitter, about 3.7kg pale malt, 250g crystal and 28 IBUs.

I added 2 teaspoons of calcium carbonate to the grist, which gave me the correct pH, but unfortunately, the resulting brew has a harsh bitterness to it.

I know most people have the opposite problem with water treatment, but has anyone come accross this before?
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steve_flack

Post by steve_flack » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:19 am

What's your mash pH? Anything down to 5.0 should be OK. Are you below that? You could try caustic soda (Sodium hydroxide) I guess. That shouldn't give the carbonate roughness but might still be a bit 'salty'. Actually what about slaked lime (calcium hydroxide). That wouldn't be salty.

My water's hard so it's not a problem I share. It's a lot better here in Norfolk but where I used to live (North Hertfordshire) I had chalk with a hint of water added as my supply :(
Last edited by steve_flack on Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Andy » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:32 am

My water is uber hard and I noticed an improved "smoothness" by lowering (acidifying) the mash pH using Brupaks CRS. So this would tie up with what you're observing Jim but coming at it from the other end.....
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Post by Jim » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:35 am

Steve, mash pH without treatment is around 4.5 (as near as I can measure with papers). The treatment brings it somewhere between 5 and 5.5. Do you know where I could get slaked lime?

Daab, no, it's definitely a harsh hop flavour. Tannins make your mouth pucker up :P this is a harshness on the back of the tongue, particularly as part of the aftertaste.

Andy, yeah, that also ties up with a paragraph in the BB of B which talks about carbonate harshness.
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Post by Jim » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:49 am

DaaB wrote:Do you think there's any chance it will mellow if you put it aside for a few months?

Dont' know :cry: . I've never had this problem before. It's still drinkable, just not up to standard.
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Post by steve_flack » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:34 am

Jim wrote:Steve, mash pH without treatment is around 4.5 (as near as I can measure with papers). The treatment brings it somewhere between 5 and 5.5. Do you know where I could get slaked lime?
Yep, that's a bit low.

I'm not sure homebrew shops sell it as it's a bit rare that anyone wants to increase mash pH. Slaked lime is used in the building industry and gardening. There's several sorts of lime. There's quicklime (calcium oxide) which is nasty stuff which reacts with water to make slaked lime (AKA hydrated lime). Both are burny burny to skin. There's also a couple of other sorts which IIRC are just crushed limestone (Calcium Carbonate).

Unless you know a lab supplier then getting top quality stuff you'd be happy drinking might be a challenge.

Have you tried neutralising with sodium bicarbonate? It's more soluble than chalk so there's less chance of overusing it.

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Post by tribs » Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:16 pm

I'd try a bit of both bicarb of soda and your precipitated chalk. I wouldn't use more than a teaspoon of either though. In theory I should have the same problem having very soft water, but mash pH always seems about right :?

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Post by Jim » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:19 pm

Yeah, I did try sodium bicarb in a previous batch and it worked fine for the pH. THe only trouble was that I was sure I could taste it very slightly in the finished beer.

After a bit of research I've found that food grade slaked lime is used in pickling (they call it 'pickling lime'. Apparently it's sold in supermarkets in the US for people that do home 'canning' as they call it.

Research so far suggests that UK supermarkets don't sell it, though. :cry: Maybe I can find a specialist supplier on the web - the quest continues.
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Post by BigEd » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 am

Jim wrote:Yeah, I did try sodium bicarb in a previous batch and it worked fine for the pH. THe only trouble was that I was sure I could taste it very slightly in the finished beer.

After a bit of research I've found that food grade slaked lime is used in pickling (they call it 'pickling lime'. Apparently it's sold in supermarkets in the US for people that do home 'canning' as they call it.

Research so far suggests that UK supermarkets don't sell it, though. :cry: Maybe I can find a specialist supplier on the web - the quest continues.
Ha, I was going to suggest "pickling lime" but I see you have already found it. Jim, you must have some unusal water! Can you post the mineral ppm breakdown? I don't think your harshness is being caused by the calcium carbonate per se but perhaps by some combination of problems. Sodium bicarbonate really boosts the sodium ppm so I am not surprised you find a taste in the end product. Have you tried either using just one tsp of calcium carbonate or diluting your water with distilled to reduce the mineral content? Just guessing but I wonder if you have an excess of magnesium in you water.

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Post by Jim » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:14 am

BigEd wrote:
Jim wrote:Yeah, I did try sodium bicarb in a previous batch and it worked fine for the pH. THe only trouble was that I was sure I could taste it very slightly in the finished beer.

After a bit of research I've found that food grade slaked lime is used in pickling (they call it 'pickling lime'. Apparently it's sold in supermarkets in the US for people that do home 'canning' as they call it.

Research so far suggests that UK supermarkets don't sell it, though. :cry: Maybe I can find a specialist supplier on the web - the quest continues.
Ha, I was going to suggest "pickling lime" but I see you have already found it. Jim, you must have some unusal water! Can you post the mineral ppm breakdown? I don't think your harshness is being caused by the calcium carbonate per se but perhaps by some combination of problems. Sodium bicarbonate really boosts the sodium ppm so I am not surprised you find a taste in the end product. Have you tried either using just one tsp of calcium carbonate or diluting your water with distilled to reduce the mineral content? Just guessing but I wonder if you have an excess of magnesium in you water.
BigEd, I didn't have much of a problem using untreated water, to be honest, other than a perceived poor maltose/dextrin ratio, which I compensated for by using a highish mash temperature (around 67C). So I don't think there's any basic problem with the water as regards magnesium etc. I do have a water board report, though - I'll dig it out when I get home and scan it.
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Post by Horden Hillbilly » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:50 pm

I do have a water board report, though - I'll dig it out when I get home and scan it.
Jim, will this link save you digging your water report out, I found my water info here, Washington is listed near the bottom of the list.

http://www.nwl.co.uk/domestic/waterhard.asp

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Post by Jim » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:59 am

Cheers, HH. 8)

I also have a water board analysis which I sent away for somewhere, which gives more details, but I find it a bit difficult to interpret
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Post by Jim » Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:32 am

Update on this brew:

I left it a few weeks and me and my brother in law tested in out last night (all in the interests of science, of course :wink: ) and it's definitely mellowed a bit.

While it's still got more bitterness than I would like, it can't be that bad, cos we put away more than a gallon between us. :P

Certainly drinkable; maybe some folks who like hoppy beers would think it was just right! :P
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Post by Jim » Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:32 am

DaaB wrote:Send us half a dozen bottles and i'll let you know :lol:
I'd love to, but it's in a keg. :lol: :wink:
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Post by Jim » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:01 pm

DaaB wrote:I've been thinking about how you can raise the mash PH on and off for a while now, not that it's done me much good as I know bugger all about chemistry but something SteveFlack wrote struck a chord with something I read on t'internet the other day
Have you tried neutralising with sodium bicarbonate? It's more soluble than chalk so there's less chance of overusing it.
I assumed that means using sodium bicarb to neutralise calcium carbonate, because calcium carbonate isn't readily soluble and in practice requires more of it than would normaly be required to shift the ph if it were soluble...(there is the White Cliffs of Dover not being washed into the sea analogy which has been mentioned in just about every British homebrewing publication around).


Anyway, if that is the case, apparently if you add co2 to water the calcium carbonate will readily dissolve into it so my thought was why don't you dissolve a load of calcium carbonate into a bottle of fizzy spring water? (you can get a 2L bottle for 20p). You could then use this calcium carbonate loaded water to adjust your mash ph and assuming it stays in suspension when you do this, you will only have to add the minimum amount to adjust the PH...make sense :?: :?
That sort of makes sense, but the only way to find out is to try it, I suppose. Next brew, maybe.
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