I have noticed some distinct water issues with my brews. I have only done 6 x AG brews now and 5 is in the bottle conditioning and 6 is in the FV. Anyway to summarise the treatment I used (BIAB btw):
AG#1 - SNPA - boiled water night before and campden tablet. added 2 heaped teaspoons to mash. Beer tasted fine from the bottle.
AG#2 - London Pride clone. boiled water night before and campden tablet. added 2 heaped teaspoons to mash and a teaspoon of espom salts for experiment. Took ages to condition but a good beer. Can't remember whether I used combi-boiler or not.
AG#3 - Hop Back Summer Lightning - water from the combi-boiler, forgot to add gypsum until late in mash. Not sure about campden tablet. Horrible chemical taste afterwards.
AG#4 - Jennings Cumberland Ale - water from the combi-boiler, added campden and gypsum. Horrible taste again, though not as stringent.
AG#5 Sierra Nevada Porter - as for #4, but tasted ok from the FV. A darker beer though.
AG#6 SNPA - water from the combi-boiler, campden tablet and checked Salifert, Alkalinity 231 and treated as per GW calculator. Tastes ok in FV, but still not fermented out.
The combi boiler has a hard water filter in-line which is why I didn't bother pre-boiling for #3 to #5. So the astringent taste is either due to the water from the boiler, or perhaps because I should have boiled that water as well. Time will tell when I taste the porter in a couple of weeks. It was only bottled Saturday. I am hoping the CRS treatment for AG#6 has sorted out any issues, otherwise I am going to have to use cold water for the next brew, and then check whether there are any issues with the FV and bottling bucket...
Water Issues
Water Issues
Last edited by Goulders on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
crafty john
Re: Water Issues
I would never use water heated through my combi, I always boil and treat my liquor the night before from the cold tap, that's just me but I wouldn't trust water that had been heated through my combi for brewing. I know it takes a few more hours but I have never had any issues.
Re: Water Issues
Quite a few others do it, including Runwell Steve I think so shouldn't be an issue.
FWIW my water report is HERE
FWIW my water report is HERE
-
greenxpaddy
Re: Water Issues
I would say there are two basic water priorities
Reduce excessive water hardness.
Remove chloramine with camp den
I would stick to that for a while and see how you go before possibly considering full water profiling.
Reduce excessive water hardness.
Remove chloramine with camp den
I would stick to that for a while and see how you go before possibly considering full water profiling.
Re: Water Issues
Our posts crossed by couple of minutes Paddy. I am quite happy with the water profiling software and something needed to be done! You can see by the report the issues I have to deal with!
-
greenxpaddy
Re: Water Issues
Very soft like mine.
You need to add gypsum calcium chloride Epsom sodium chloride. To get a balance. Unfortunately your report is not complete from a brewers angle but if you based it on mine I think you will not go far wrong.
Don't think you need to use CRS! I dont
You need to add gypsum calcium chloride Epsom sodium chloride. To get a balance. Unfortunately your report is not complete from a brewers angle but if you based it on mine I think you will not go far wrong.
Don't think you need to use CRS! I dont
Re: Water Issues
You reading the right one??!!greenxpaddy wrote:Very soft like mine.
Alkalinity of 231 that I got isn't soft! You should see the fur on the kettle. Now soft water is what I used to get living in the lakes (where I am from originally)
-
greenxpaddy
Re: Water Issues
Sh'te I am sorry I was looking at the first column! Yes very hard water. so I reckon if you just use your CRS And camp den you will be fine.
-
Eric
- Even further under the Table
- Posts: 2920
- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
- Location: Sunderland.
Re: Water Issues
I've used water from a combi for going on 20 years without difference to that direct, just a lot faster. I would be concerned by the water softener, but if it's been there for several years and you still get lots of limescale it possibly isn't doing anything.
Our waters are similar in their alkalinity, which has significant influence on the brewing processes and the resultant beer. It can produce, for example, a lot more astringent beer than with a different, less alkaline water or your own treated with, for example, CRS. However, in my book astringency, for one, can be a characteristic that enhances some beers and not what I would always class as an off-taste. In other words, you can produce a good beer with very alkaline water but it will taste quite different to the same recipe in treated water which could possibly be more gentle on the palate.
For 80% of my brewing experience, I thought campden tablets were only for wine makers. I used sod. met. of course and also chorine based products but only the two in harmony in recent times. I struggle to understand the view that water to your home that is suitable for use in cooking, for consumption in tea, coffee, orange concentrate or even neat, will make only foul tasting beer unless it contains a campden tablet. There may indeed be such cases but surely logic suggests they must be in a miniscule minority.
I appreciate this is posted as a water issue and small changes can have disproportionate influences on the outcome, but if you once make a batch of good beer then subsequently produce something nasty by the same process, you might consider infection. Not one of my brews will have been uncontaminated, yet it must be the early nineties when I last considered dumping an entire all-grain brew.
Infection is controlled in live beer by the goodies beating the baddies. Even an 11 gram packet of a good and well respected yeast can, by its data sheet, contain up to a million bacteria and a million wild yeast cells. However, as it contains about ten thousand goodies for every one of those, there is little chance of them taking control.
I wonder if it is safe to assume that a no-chill cube for all the time it contains no goodies will contain fewer baddies than an 11 gram packet of a very respected yeast such that the goodies will always come out best.
Our waters are similar in their alkalinity, which has significant influence on the brewing processes and the resultant beer. It can produce, for example, a lot more astringent beer than with a different, less alkaline water or your own treated with, for example, CRS. However, in my book astringency, for one, can be a characteristic that enhances some beers and not what I would always class as an off-taste. In other words, you can produce a good beer with very alkaline water but it will taste quite different to the same recipe in treated water which could possibly be more gentle on the palate.
For 80% of my brewing experience, I thought campden tablets were only for wine makers. I used sod. met. of course and also chorine based products but only the two in harmony in recent times. I struggle to understand the view that water to your home that is suitable for use in cooking, for consumption in tea, coffee, orange concentrate or even neat, will make only foul tasting beer unless it contains a campden tablet. There may indeed be such cases but surely logic suggests they must be in a miniscule minority.
I appreciate this is posted as a water issue and small changes can have disproportionate influences on the outcome, but if you once make a batch of good beer then subsequently produce something nasty by the same process, you might consider infection. Not one of my brews will have been uncontaminated, yet it must be the early nineties when I last considered dumping an entire all-grain brew.
Infection is controlled in live beer by the goodies beating the baddies. Even an 11 gram packet of a good and well respected yeast can, by its data sheet, contain up to a million bacteria and a million wild yeast cells. However, as it contains about ten thousand goodies for every one of those, there is little chance of them taking control.
I wonder if it is safe to assume that a no-chill cube for all the time it contains no goodies will contain fewer baddies than an 11 gram packet of a very respected yeast such that the goodies will always come out best.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.
-
boingy
Re: Water Issues
Eric's point about the water filter is an excellent one. That would be my first point of investigation.
Two obvious questions:
1. Have you tried cooling and tasting the water?
2. Are you sure it's a combi boiler? Don't laugh, I have a mate who got confused between combi and condensing boilers.
One less obvious question:
3. What yeasts are you using? Are you harvesting/reusing any?
The other thing is to take a step back and look at your water treatments again. It's really easy to overdo that stuff, much to the detriment of the beer.
Two obvious questions:
1. Have you tried cooling and tasting the water?
2. Are you sure it's a combi boiler? Don't laugh, I have a mate who got confused between combi and condensing boilers.
One less obvious question:
3. What yeasts are you using? Are you harvesting/reusing any?
The other thing is to take a step back and look at your water treatments again. It's really easy to overdo that stuff, much to the detriment of the beer.
Re: Water Issues
Thanks Eric and Boingy for taking time to comment.
The water tastes fine cooled and the first 2 AG brews I did used boiled and cooled water from the cold tap. The boiler is a combi (not condensing). The water I have is very hard as you can tell and the water I used for my SNPA came out of the combi-boiler and tested with salifert the alkalinity was over 230, so the water softener isn't doing that good a job (if any).
My sanitising processes are the same (even since kit brewing) and whilst those who use immersion chillers may say otherwise,I am very happy with the no-chill cube; but that's another topic! The SNPA tastes fine in the trial jar, as did the porter. The porter has only been in the bottle since Saturday so will test that in a couple of weeks. I will see how the SNPA turns out before looking again at my processes. From what I have read I understand it is easy to overdo CRS. I think the calculator said to add 38ml and I cut back to 34ml to be on the safe side.
I hope this is a water treatment issue. Boiling the water would have significantly reduced the hardness in AG#1 and 2. AGs#3 to #5 should have had some basic water treatment based on the salifert results. If the SNPA turns out nasty, then I will look at the possibility of infection!
As to yeasts, AG#2 (which was fine) used wlp002. AG#3 used harvested hop back from SL, and AG#4 used SO4. I don't think the yeast is an issue but this is a learning process and we shall see!
The water tastes fine cooled and the first 2 AG brews I did used boiled and cooled water from the cold tap. The boiler is a combi (not condensing). The water I have is very hard as you can tell and the water I used for my SNPA came out of the combi-boiler and tested with salifert the alkalinity was over 230, so the water softener isn't doing that good a job (if any).
My sanitising processes are the same (even since kit brewing) and whilst those who use immersion chillers may say otherwise,I am very happy with the no-chill cube; but that's another topic! The SNPA tastes fine in the trial jar, as did the porter. The porter has only been in the bottle since Saturday so will test that in a couple of weeks. I will see how the SNPA turns out before looking again at my processes. From what I have read I understand it is easy to overdo CRS. I think the calculator said to add 38ml and I cut back to 34ml to be on the safe side.
I hope this is a water treatment issue. Boiling the water would have significantly reduced the hardness in AG#1 and 2. AGs#3 to #5 should have had some basic water treatment based on the salifert results. If the SNPA turns out nasty, then I will look at the possibility of infection!
As to yeasts, AG#2 (which was fine) used wlp002. AG#3 used harvested hop back from SL, and AG#4 used SO4. I don't think the yeast is an issue but this is a learning process and we shall see!
-
fisherman
Re: Water Issues
With a alkalinity of 231ppm are you using CRs at 1.1 mls per litre for all of the brewing water. Also if your alkalinty is 231 you will be lacking in calcium and other minerals, I use DWB ( DLS ) from Murphy and son for my mineral additions you will need 0.7 grams per litre for the brewlentgh so 23 litres =16 grms half in with the grist and half in the boil.
Good Luck
Good Luck
Re: Water Issues
Cheers. I have not looked at DLS, but added gypsum and epsom salts as per GW's calculator. I will need calcium chloride for bitters
-
Eric
- Even further under the Table
- Posts: 2920
- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
- Location: Sunderland.
Re: Water Issues
No, I don't think yeast is the issue, something else has to be wrong to contaminate the yeast that much even if you harvest it a time or two. Having said that, I'd be inclined to pitch fresh dried yeast until the problem was solved.
While it can be, and I've done it, easy to overdose with CRS, if you've got the kit you can easily check what you have. I hope Boingy might confirm this, but not all that many years in the past, most of us were relatively clueless about how our water should be treated and just tried spoonfuls of this and spoonfuls of that in the hope of making the perfect pint. My results were rarely much better, but neither were they on other occasions much worse. More recently I've found there is a little sweet spot for each style although in all my time I never felt a bad water treatment was cause of anything worse than a poor beer.
Good luck.
While it can be, and I've done it, easy to overdose with CRS, if you've got the kit you can easily check what you have. I hope Boingy might confirm this, but not all that many years in the past, most of us were relatively clueless about how our water should be treated and just tried spoonfuls of this and spoonfuls of that in the hope of making the perfect pint. My results were rarely much better, but neither were they on other occasions much worse. More recently I've found there is a little sweet spot for each style although in all my time I never felt a bad water treatment was cause of anything worse than a poor beer.
Good luck.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.
-
Aleman
- It's definitely Lock In Time
- Posts: 6132
- Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:56 am
- Location: Mashing In Blackpool, Lancashire, UK
Re: Water Issues
fisherman wrote:if your alkalinty is 231 you will be lacking in calcium and other minerals
Erm NO! The alkalinity (Probably from the HCO3- ion) must be combined with something, and it is usually Calcium and Magnesium (Which make up the temporary hardness). While it is not beyond the realms of possibility that some of the bicarbonate is combined with sodium or potassium, at the level required to give alkalinity of 231 I would bet the water would taste salty.Now you may be referring to lacking in minerals after treatment again, unless you boil to reduce the alkalinity, when using acids the calcium and magnesium levels remain the same (more or less). The reason why you would use gypsum/ calcium chloride/ magnesium sulphate (DWB is a mixture of these) is to increase the chloride and sulphate levels in the water. Yes it boosts calcium and magnesium but The OP's water is going to have enough calcium anyway, and you only need aroun4mg/l magnesium which is amply provided by the malt.
The alkalinity certainly needs to be reduced, but as for any further treatment . . .probably not a great deal.
Oh and that softener before the combi boiler will strip calcium and magnesium from teh water to prevent furring up . . . it leaves the alkalinity alone, and probably increases sodium and for that reason alone don't use water from the combi boiler!!!