using RO water

[dazer23866]

Here in Oxford we have very hard water but I have an endless supply of RO water, I have dialled the numbers in the beer smith water profile tool as
base profile
ca 00
mg 00
na 00
so4 00
cl 00
hc03 00
and the target profile as Burton on Trent which gives me additions for
25.5 Gypson
14.1 Epsom salt
1.1 Calcium chloride
6.1 Baking soda
5.0 Chalk
would this be better water to use rather than out of the tap, and if so would I add these additions to the water or to the mash or a combination of both

[barneey]

Never tried RO water before but my best advice if your messing around with water profiles for the first time would be to get you tap water sent off for a full analysis.

Try Grahams Calculator on Jims, with the water profile you have for your tap water, you can also try "supermarket" bottle water with Grahams calculator, brew the same batch for untreated, tap treated and supermarket, RO water see what you prefer.

[orlando]

Gordon Strong of Brewing Better Beer fame is very big on RO water as it gives the blank canvas you describe. As long as you have 50ppm of calcium in the mash and sparge water below pH 5.8 then your in business. I would check the pH of your RO water first of all. Chalk is a bit of a sod to get into solution so it would be better off in the mash. Gypsum, Epsom and Calcium Chloride, he says, can be added to the mash, sparge or boil. Add salts to the mash when you want calcium to be available or need to control the pH. Add salts to the boil for flavour impact.

[barneey]

Did you get your RO system setup Orlando?

[orlando]

No. I am having our en-suite ripped out and a new one setting up so both that and my microscope is on hold until I know whether there is any play money left (actually that is an echo from SWMBO you just read ). The way I square it is that if there is a decent pot left over I can "upgrade" my ideas .

I have of course had a look at a few systems and am nervous because there are some very large swings in price. I'm assuming that for an entire domestic system that requires a lot of water then you need to spend a lot. I'm hoping that as I only really need circa 50 litres per brew that even if this took a few hours to "percolate" through it doesn't matter as it can all happen separate to the domestic supply. The concern there I suppose is I will presumably have to remember turn it off once I have enough. Anyone out there experienced this and can advise?

This is the one I keep looking at as the price is very reasonable. The costs for replacement filters are steep but I'm only expecting to change the once a year or so as the throughput is relatively small.

[dazer23866]

Thanks for the replies, I have tried the calculators and I do get good beer but I tasted a couple of beers that a friend had made that had been made with just bottled water and the results were so much better than mine.this is why i am now thinking RO, the shop near me will give me as much RO water as like free of charge I would be batch sparging rather than a fly sparge so do you think chalk in the mash and every thing else in the water. I think you are right try it and see if the results are better this is a link to the picture of the RO unit http://www.thegoldfishbowl.co.uk/images ... C00758.jpg

[Lars]

I use my ro system and treat the water as per the brewing water chemistry primer on hbt. Be very careful buying an ro system as most have very low throughput. I have to start filling 5l bottles a few days before I brew it's so slow. You'll need something like this http://www.vyair.com/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=129 if u want to fill and brew on same day. I was having major conversion issues until I started using ro to brew

L

[orlando]

Lars, if you click on my link above it will take you to the Vyair system I have in mind. I asked the question of throughput and was told it would be 5 litres an hour. I suspect that is optimistic and if true that would probably straight out the box when it's new. Given all that it would mean making sure that I started collecting water a day or so in advance. They have an automatic shut off float system I can attach to the HLT so it would just mean setting it off and leaving it to collect a day in advance of brewing. The waste water it produces can be diverted to the waste trap so requires a little more kit for that. Is there anything else I've missed or need to consider?

[Wolfy]

Do you have a water analysis report for the stuff that comes out of the tap - it's a bit hard to say which is 'better' without knowing that.
It may be that mixing the tap and RO water gives you a good profile for a large range of beer styles.

[Lars]

Orlando, that's got a 50gpd membrane like mine. Mine uses a storage tank. I get 5l in about 10 mins but it takes hours for the tank to refill. Remember it'll depend on ur delivery pressure also. Mines about 3 bar which is pretty good. I usually take 5l in the mornin and 5l in the evening for a few days in advance although I'm not sure what it'd deliver if I left it running. If u can leave it run with a float switch all the better. Just make sure you keep researching before u buy. Id be happy with 5l per hour but there's no way mine does that

L

[simple one]

Do you have a water analysis report for the stuff that comes out of the tap - it's a bit hard to say which is 'better' without knowing that.
It may be that mixing the tap and RO water gives you a good profile for a large range of beer styles.

I agree with this. Dilution, is probably the way to go for economy and to have more of a handle on the final beer pH.
RO water may be fine for an all pale malt mash, and should hit the required mash pH. And if the beer colour is light you should get a final beer pH within the norm. But when/if you begin to steep grains to make a darker beer (during mash or post mash) the pH of final product may be somewhat lower than you like.

Is the bottled water your friend uses RO or normal bottled water?

[dazer23866]

Do you have a water analysis report for the stuff that comes out of the tap - it's a bit hard to say which is 'better' without knowing that.
It may be that mixing the tap and RO water gives you a good profile for a large range of beer styles.

Yes I do but don't know much on this subject to do a dilution and then know what kind of water I am left with, and if I did I wouldn't know if it was any good.
here is a link for the report http://secure.thameswater.co.uk/water-q ... uneham.pdf

Is the bottled water your friend uses RO or normal bottled water

Normal bottled water, I could use it but I would have to pay for it. I just thought that because I am able to get free RO water and just wondered if I could make a profile up for my beers that I brew but now i am starting to think other wise.

using Beer Smith it gives me a starting profile of 0 and a target profile and the additions i need to make to make it suitable for brewing, I was going to go with Burton on Trent for my pale beer and the London profile for my dark beers and one of the German profiles for lagers

[Wolfy]

Do you have a water analysis report for the stuff that comes out of the tap - it's a bit hard to say which is 'better' without knowing that.
It may be that mixing the tap and RO water gives you a good profile for a large range of beer styles.

Yes I do but don't know much on this subject to do a dilution and then know what kind of water I am left with, and if I did I wouldn't know if it was any good.
here is a link for the report http://secure.thameswater.co.uk/water-q ... uneham.pdf

It's just ratios, the ratio of the water-mix compared to how much of that element is in the water.

Lets take Chloride as an example: The report suggests the water has 28.1ppm (mg/L).
Your RO/Distilled water will have 0 ppm (or close enough to it).

Mixing 1L of tap water with 1L of RO water (ratio 1:1) will result in 28.1 x 1/2 = 14.05ppm Cl in the resultant 2L of water.
Mixing 2L of tap water with 1L of RO water (ratio 2:1) will result in 28.1 x 2/3 = 18.73ppm Cl in the resultant 3L of water.

[dazer23866]

It's just ratios, the ratio of the water-mix compared to how much of that element is in the water.

Thanks Wolfy but i can understand that, but what I dont understand is what makes good brewing water for the beers that I brew, so if I was to dilute I would be still none the wiser to what is better, having a higher percentage of one mineral or a lower percentage of another,this is why I dialled it all in to Beer smith.
i have been reading on Braukaiser.com that he has a different water profile for each of his beers that he makes, I suppose what I am after is a water recipe one for dark beers and one for pale and one for lager but not sure how to go about this.
I think I am getting a bit above myself looking into RO water as I thought it was just a case of dialling numbers in to a calc and coming out with a suitable water recipe, I now see that just by adding dark malts I would be changing things quite a lot in terms of PH and other things, maybe i should just stick to what I know and be thankful my beers are OK,

[Lars]

Dazer, if your using ro it is 'that' simple. Just use the guidelines on post1 of http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewin ... er-198460/ for most of what u need and there's some more specific info elsewhere in the thread. That guy AJDelange knows his water and is very helpful

L