Durham Liquor

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
User avatar
ajclarkson
Hollow Legs
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 4:08 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Durham Liquor

Post by ajclarkson » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:44 am

Alright everyone,

I noticed with one of my extract brews that there was a really metallic twang to it. I brewed that recipe twice, and didn't pick up on it the first time which made me discount extract twang, and a bit of reading suggested this could be because I wasn't treating my water at all, particularly relating to chlorine. So for my last BIAB, I followed some really simple advice and boiled the water I was going to use, left it to cool over night, and treated with 1/4 of a Campden tablet before brewing with it. Kind of low tech, and a suits all solution, so I read my water report.

Here in Durham, we have Northumbrian Water, and they don't give CaCO3 readings in any form other than hardness with the water report. Mine is at 42.5mg/l which, from what I can tell is really low (compared to a lot of other threads I've read here). The rest of the report:

CaCO3 (hardness): 42.5mg/l
Magnesium: 1.11 ug/l
Sodium: 6.74 mg/l
Sulphate: 38 mg/l
Chloride: 9.8 mg/l

When I plug those numbers into the calculator on here, and select Burton Pale Ale as the target (big fan of IPA/PA/APA's), and for a usual small batch strike volume of 16 litres for my BIAB system. It recommends:

CRS: 1.4ml
Calcium Sulphate: 7.04g
Magnesium Sulphate: 3.07g
Sodium Chloride: 0.8g

I think I've done everything right there, but before I dive in and buy some scales capable of .01g weighing, and a syringe capable of < 1ml measurements I wanted to ask the gurus. I think I'll probably have to pick up a Salifert kit to get a better handle on the alkalinity as well, as the calculator is having to use estimated values from my water hardness.

I also left the residual alkalinity with CRS selected, and default value of 20 as I don't really understand what is going on there!

Additionally, I notice my water report gives Mg in ug/l rather than mg/l as with the others. Does the calculator take account of that, or should I be converting between the two units?

Cheers

Adam
Adam

Fermenting: AG#15 - Dubbel - Oh, Seven?
Conditioning: AG#14 - Pale Ale 3 (Challenger & Mt. Hood)
Drinking: Out! :(
Up Next: Oatmeal Stout, Hefe
Year To Date: 165 pints | Total: 775 pints

My Setup: Electric BIAB with a Dual Purpose Heat Exchange / Cooler

User avatar
Eric
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2873
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
Location: Sunderland.

Re: Durham Liquor

Post by Eric » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:27 pm

Hi Adam, from where did you get those figures? This morning Northumbrian Water telephoned me in response to a request for such data and promised to email me a report on Friday. It seems they alter their web information frequently and much of the scant data downloaded less than 2 weeks since has gone to be replaced by different but equally unhelpful stuff.
You don't need scales that accurate if your intention is to brew beer for drinking rather than scientific research and that measurement for magnesium could well be a typographical error else it's too small an amount to consider.
If you want to give me your post code (by PM if you wish) I'll give you Northumbrian Water's figures for alkalinity in your area.
From the information you've given, I wouldn't expect your water to be responsible for any twang in an extract brew (or AG for that matter), with the possible exception of chlorine which would be eradicated by your chosen treatment. I've never found chlorine to cause a problem with my brews.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

User avatar
ajclarkson
Hollow Legs
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 4:08 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Durham Liquor

Post by ajclarkson » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:47 pm

Thanks for the reply. They do bury things well on the website, it just took me a while to work my way back to it now!

http://www.nwl.co.uk/your-home/your-acc ... -area.aspx

Stick your post code in there, it should tell you the water hardness, with a button underneath "Read your water report"

That takes you to another page which, helpfully, tells you your water hardness again, but there is a tab above the graph called "water quality report", hit that, then "download detailed report"

Easy to find. Honest! :D

As for the other things you raised, 1.1 ug/l did seem impossibly small to me as well,and I'll PM you my post code for the alkalinity. With the extract brew, that twang was present before I tried the chlorine treatment, so hoping that this latest one doesn't show it (though this will be AG rather than extract).
Adam

Fermenting: AG#15 - Dubbel - Oh, Seven?
Conditioning: AG#14 - Pale Ale 3 (Challenger & Mt. Hood)
Drinking: Out! :(
Up Next: Oatmeal Stout, Hefe
Year To Date: 165 pints | Total: 775 pints

My Setup: Electric BIAB with a Dual Purpose Heat Exchange / Cooler

User avatar
Eric
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2873
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
Location: Sunderland.

Re: Durham Liquor

Post by Eric » Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:17 pm

It might be easy for you Adam, but I'll have to try again later because I've just gone around in a circle.

Right, 3 readings from 12 samples for alkalinity in mg/l CaCO3.......... minimum 18, average 48, maximum 82.
Readings from 4 samples for calcium in mg/l Ca.......................... minimum 15, average 17, maximum 21.
Soft.
Quite a variation as you see, but a good basis to start with.
Think I'll have a lie down and try again.
Eric.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

User avatar
ajclarkson
Hollow Legs
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 4:08 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Durham Liquor

Post by ajclarkson » Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:24 pm

Cheers for those, there is quite a variation yeah!

The easy comment was more sarcasm! If you want to send your postcode this way ill get the PDF for your area and link directly to it for you this evening.
Adam

Fermenting: AG#15 - Dubbel - Oh, Seven?
Conditioning: AG#14 - Pale Ale 3 (Challenger & Mt. Hood)
Drinking: Out! :(
Up Next: Oatmeal Stout, Hefe
Year To Date: 165 pints | Total: 775 pints

My Setup: Electric BIAB with a Dual Purpose Heat Exchange / Cooler

User avatar
Eric
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2873
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
Location: Sunderland.

Re: Durham Liquor

Post by Eric » Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:32 pm

I've got it thanks to you Adam. It still doesn't detail magnesium, which surprises me as our water is from a bore hole into possibly the biggest bit magnesian limestone in the country.
Yes, the variations are significant, but I would guess your alkalinity will be mostly suitable for brewing without alteration, just additional salts unless you intend to get really serious.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

User avatar
ajclarkson
Hollow Legs
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 4:08 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Durham Liquor

Post by ajclarkson » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:02 pm

Glad you got there with it, and thanks for the advice. I'll just start with salts, not looking to throw myself in totally at the deep end just yet!
Adam

Fermenting: AG#15 - Dubbel - Oh, Seven?
Conditioning: AG#14 - Pale Ale 3 (Challenger & Mt. Hood)
Drinking: Out! :(
Up Next: Oatmeal Stout, Hefe
Year To Date: 165 pints | Total: 775 pints

My Setup: Electric BIAB with a Dual Purpose Heat Exchange / Cooler

User avatar
ajclarkson
Hollow Legs
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 4:08 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Durham Liquor

Post by ajclarkson » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:31 am

I've done a bit more reading about it all, and I think I'm getting there with understanding things a bit more. Probably won't be doing the salts for the next brew or so, as every last penny will be needed for ingredients, but will get there with it soon!
Adam

Fermenting: AG#15 - Dubbel - Oh, Seven?
Conditioning: AG#14 - Pale Ale 3 (Challenger & Mt. Hood)
Drinking: Out! :(
Up Next: Oatmeal Stout, Hefe
Year To Date: 165 pints | Total: 775 pints

My Setup: Electric BIAB with a Dual Purpose Heat Exchange / Cooler

User avatar
Eric
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2873
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
Location: Sunderland.

Re: Durham Liquor

Post by Eric » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:20 pm

Adam, it seems to me your water contains only half the calcium necessary, so I'd suggest you invest in some gypsum and mix a well heaped teaspoonful with your grain before you mash (assume 23 litre brewlength). You should then get better extraction and hop utilisation to more than cover the additional cost.
There could be enough magnesium in the grain but might you have some Epsom salts in a cupboard?
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

User avatar
ajclarkson
Hollow Legs
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 4:08 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Durham Liquor

Post by ajclarkson » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:46 pm

OK, I've just ordered some gypsum and epsom salts, for some reason I thought it'd end up costing me more! Shouldn't be so tight haha.

Hopefully they'll arrive tomorrow as I'm planning a California Common on Sunday.
Adam

Fermenting: AG#15 - Dubbel - Oh, Seven?
Conditioning: AG#14 - Pale Ale 3 (Challenger & Mt. Hood)
Drinking: Out! :(
Up Next: Oatmeal Stout, Hefe
Year To Date: 165 pints | Total: 775 pints

My Setup: Electric BIAB with a Dual Purpose Heat Exchange / Cooler

User avatar
alix101
Under the Table
Posts: 1786
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:34 am
Location: Chester-le-street Durham

Re: Durham Liquor

Post by alix101 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:18 am

Great link for the water report ,and learning water treatment will certainly help your brewing (I find it baffling) you said you had a metallic taste in your beer? If this was an extract brew ! did you use cans, or dried often they can impart a metallic taste depending how fresh and how they have been treated. You can also get it from your equipment.
"Everybody should belive in something : and I belive I'll have another drink".

User avatar
ajclarkson
Hollow Legs
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 4:08 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Durham Liquor

Post by ajclarkson » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:01 pm

The gypsum and salts did arrive today along with a bag of crystal malt that's sat under my office desk smelling wonderful at the minute. So I'll be trying out some water treatment on my California Common on Sunday!

alix, glad the link was helpful for you. I used dried in both runs of the recipe, one had the twang, one didn't. So I don't know what caused it, but learning water treatment can only help my brews in the future anyway.
Adam

Fermenting: AG#15 - Dubbel - Oh, Seven?
Conditioning: AG#14 - Pale Ale 3 (Challenger & Mt. Hood)
Drinking: Out! :(
Up Next: Oatmeal Stout, Hefe
Year To Date: 165 pints | Total: 775 pints

My Setup: Electric BIAB with a Dual Purpose Heat Exchange / Cooler

User avatar
alix101
Under the Table
Posts: 1786
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:34 am
Location: Chester-le-street Durham

Re: Durham Liquor

Post by alix101 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:40 pm

I can't make head nor tails if that water report :oops: I'm sure the, info is there somewhere.
"Everybody should belive in something : and I belive I'll have another drink".

User avatar
ajclarkson
Hollow Legs
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 4:08 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Durham Liquor

Post by ajclarkson » Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:45 pm

I found the information on Magnesium, Sodium, Sulphate and Chlorides there. Eric kindly helped me out with the alkalinity. If you want to send me a link to the water report for your area I can take a look and see if I can work it out? Not promising much, can't claim to be an expert.

I do have a brew just coming up to the boil at the minute, which was my first with water treatment though! Not claiming that it's related, but I got a ridiculously high mash efficiency for BIAB with this one. May even have to dilute after the boil to hit my expected OG :shock:
Adam

Fermenting: AG#15 - Dubbel - Oh, Seven?
Conditioning: AG#14 - Pale Ale 3 (Challenger & Mt. Hood)
Drinking: Out! :(
Up Next: Oatmeal Stout, Hefe
Year To Date: 165 pints | Total: 775 pints

My Setup: Electric BIAB with a Dual Purpose Heat Exchange / Cooler

User avatar
Eric
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2873
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
Location: Sunderland.

Re: Durham Liquor

Post by Eric » Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:14 am

Pleased to learn of the potentially high extraction efficiency, that should be so if the figures you got are somewhwere near correct. Improvement shouldn't stop there, any calcium carried over will influence later processes, often for the better and the form in which the calcium is supplied will influence the beer's flavout profile.
I don't think the report lists magnesium content, at least mine doesn't, but does give a figure for manganese which I think may be of no interest.
Steve, if you PM me your postcode I'll give you Northumbrian Water's latest figures fo alkalinity in your area. I know you've told me where you live but that part of my memory is very unreliable.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

Post Reply