Sulphuric Acid v CRS

[barneey]

My Current Tap Water Profile is Calcium 123, Magnesium 5, Sodium 31, Carbonate 145 (bicarb 145), Sulphate 22.80, Chloride 55, Alkalinity 242, Hardness 326.

I normally brew pale ales either with treated tap water (CRS + Minerals) or Tesco`s bottled water (minerals only), the best results have been acheived with Tesco`s water.

My question therefore is would I be better off using Sulphuric Acid + Gypsum addition to treat my tap water, my understanding is that CRS will raise both the Sulphate and Chloride levels (I believe the chloride level is the one producing the off flavours.

I`ve been using Martins Bru n Water calc program for the theoritical end water profile and using Sulphuric seems to produce a balance profile for a Pale Ale.

With regards buying Sulphuric would this be OK EDIT REMOVED

Any comments / corrections please to the above thinking

Cheers

[mabrungard]

Given the modest chloride level in that tap water and the goal to boost sulfate to typical Pale Ale range, using sulfuric acid is prudent. The amount of CRS needed to neutralize the alkalinity would probably boost the chloride over 100 ppm and only deliver a modest punch up of sulfate. Using sulfuric acid allows you to boost the sulfate, cut the alkalinity, and keep chlorides where they are. High chloride with high sulfate is not a very flavorful combination. High sulfate with modest chloride is better tasting in my opinion.

That 96% sulfuric acid is potent stuff and it demands extreme care in use. CRS is nicely diluted, so its a bit safer to handle and easier to dose. If I remember correctly, its a half and half mix of 0.5 molar hydrochloric and 0.5 molar sulfuric acids. Diluting the 96% sulfuric acid is highly recommended prior to any brewery use. I'd say diluting to about 20 to 25% would be wise.

Thanks for the mention of Bru'n Water. It includes the ability to work with a variety of acids. The version sent to supporters includes the use of CRS. Bru'n Water is unique in that you don't just blindly adjust water alkalinity. You match the mashing water alkalinity with the needs of the mash to produce an appropriate mash pH.

[simple one]

Have you tried brewing with just the CRS and no salts? I (and others) had similar problems to you, but found that the gypsum was the the problem not the solution.
The sulphate chloride ratio is just a guide to taste, and gypsum is easily tasteable even in small amounts. Try dropping both?

Don't trust the machines to know what tastes better!

[barneey]

Never reaaly tried just the CRS with no additions so might give it ago at some point to trial the taste difference.

Strangely enough though when bosium visited me earlier this year and brewed his Angry Yank he recommended no other additions apart form using latic acid for the mash PH, Ok different style etc but the philosophy was concentrate on PH first, tweak later.

Ive ordered some Sulphuric acid for a trial brew to see how the result matches the bottled water, (now will have a range of acids available for experimentation)

Cheers

[orlando]

concentrate on PH first, tweak later.

As you know from Gordon Strong's book "Brewing Better Beer" his emphasis is getting the mash pH right and is an advocate of phosphoric acid for reducing alkalinity and pH. Intriguing that you are using sulphuric, suggesting that different acids do different jobs, he is not so keen on lactic though. I have taken a look at this calculator and think that if I can get my water profile in it correctly it has the advantage of handling acid use to achieve a far more precise profle for any given beer style. I have two problems; first is my profile flagged up an imbalance between cations and anions , and I don't know why, furthermore I'm still confused on how to approach the various liquour usage. i.e do I treat the whole liquour requirement or approach it in parts (mash liqour/sparge water).

[barneey]

Although I have now got phosphoric acid in my collection of bottles, I have obtained better results (with my water profile) by using sulpuric acid to add sulphate whilst reducing the mash PH, the gypsum addition was just to try and get everything else in balance.

There has been several posts on here regarding possible side effects with the heating of phosphoric acid, no idea about that (I`ll let the water / acid members answer that one )

As for the treatment etc of water (additions of acid and minerals) mabrungard`s program calculates the amount required for both the mash and the following sparge treatment (again Martin please correct me if this is wrong). The way I`m using the program at the moment is firstly entering in my water profile into a master spread sheet, saving this and then using copies to work with different recipies.

The recipies I`m using the normal beersmith2 route, which then gives me the water for the Mash and sparge etc required. The recipe is then entered into the water calculator with the water volumes for the mash and sparge, again I save this a Master spreadsheet and use a copy to play around with acid / mineral additions, firstly choosing an Acid (TAB 2) (keeping the treatment volume on that tab as 1 litre- wil auto calc on other tabs) then adding the amount per litre on TAB 3 and then finally messing around with the minerals, depending on what acid you choose with add different compounds etc (oh yes dont forget to choose the water profile your after.)

Please correct the above if anything is not correct / true (the above is my take on using the program) + the Bru n Water calc has fairly detailed instructions included in the software, I`m sure Martin is more than happy to answer further questions.

Cheers

[barneey]

Just been trying a few more water profiles I have to hand with the software, have noticed the original profile use was Cations 7.89 & Anions 6.86 = Ratio 1.15.

I have since had the water tested again and the results now show 8.01 & 7.4 = Ratio 1.08 so nearly within the recommend limit of 0.95 to 1.05, the latest results being just outside the range is it anything to question?

Cheers

[orlando]

Similar issue 8.42 cation, 7.9 anion, ratio 1.07. So again like barneey very close, only .02 out from the acceptable deviation.

[mabrungard]

concentrate on PH first, tweak later.

As you know from Gordon Strong's book "Brewing Better Beer" his emphasis is getting the mash pH right and is an advocate of phosphoric acid for reducing alkalinity and pH. Intriguing that you are using sulphuric, suggesting that different acids do different jobs, he is not so keen on lactic though. I have taken a look at this calculator and think that if I can get my water profile in it correctly it has the advantage of handling acid use to achieve a far more precise profle for any given beer style. I have two problems; first is my profile flagged up an imbalance between cations and anions , and I don't know why, furthermore I'm still confused on how to approach the various liquour usage. i.e do I treat the whole liquour requirement or approach it in parts (mash liqour/sparge water).

You have to remember what experience Gordon is coming from. As a judge in the US Midwest, he is often subjected to beers made with high alkalinity water (like a lot of the UK) that probably exceeded the Lactate taste threshold due to the high amount used. Its a valid observation, but it doesn't fit every situation. With more moderate alkalinity in the tap water, you can easily use Lactic acid without flavor effect. If you dilute high alkalinity water to modest levels, then lactic might be suitable in that case. I find that even at alkalinity levels of 150 ppm as CaCO3, the taste is not really notable. I don't like the German Reinheitsgebot, but they use lactic acid in one form or another, all the time.

Ions in water are always 'balanced'. There are always equal quantities of cations and anions in the water. The problem arises from some lab results being a little suspect or a concentration of an ion or two is incorrectly converted into its proper ionic concentration value. That test for balance is just a way to let the brewer know that something is not right. If you have confidence in the primary ions of concern (the hardness and alkalinity constituents), then you can go ahead and use the information you have. I would review the hardness and alkalinity values that Bru'n Water calculates from the input data to see if they agree with any published or laboratory hardness and alkalinity values. If they don't agree, then that suggests that some of those ion concentrations are incorrect.

Mashing and sparging water should typically be treated differently. Sparging water must always have low alkalinity to avoid tannin extraction and other adverse flavor effects. But mashing water alkalinity must be coordinated with the acidity of the grist. Grists with high percentages of crystal and/or roast malts will require more alkalinity to keep the mash pH from dropping to greatly. Conversely, an all Pils grist with its low acidity will require very low alkalinity. So, treating each component of your brewing water separately is a requirement. That is why Bru'n Water is set up that way.

[orlando]

Thanks Martin that clears up a little of the confusion. Now I want to push you further on the why, when, what and where on using the various acids for alkalinity reduction. Another question is how to approach salt additions. I usually use a calculator on this site (see above under calculators) by a veteran writer on home brewing here in the UK Graham Wheeler. His calculator is designed to give you the amounts of salts you need to add to achieve the desired profile. With your calculator you are expected to "guess" and keep tweaking until you arrive at your desired match. Is it possible to take Graham's approach or is the subject too intractable?

On another note, do you agree with Gordon Strong that mash pH drives salt additions rather than the other way round, as I think most home brewers over here take the latter approach?

[mabrungard]

The problem with Graham's approach is that it requires that the brewer have all those minerals on hand. I don't make that assumption. In addition, there are more than one combination of mineral additions to achieve a desired water profile. So it doesn't make any sense to me to impose a solution. I'm hoping that most brewers find that the layout of the mineral addition sheet is intuitive enough to guide them to the minerals and amounts they need for their water. I may be wrong on that front, but its how I've approached it. It would be quite easy to apply Excel's Solver function to automate the mineral additions, but it seems pointless as indicated above.

I don't think that Gordon argues for using mineral additions to achieve mash pH needs. He is a very non-technical brewer when it comes to water. He uses RO water nearly exclusively and in those brews that could use extra alkalinity, he tends to separately steep or add the more acidic grains late to the mash. With regard to adding minerals until the mash pH is suitable, I don't like that approach either. It tends to result in beers that are too minerally and the water tends to overshadow the malt and hop flavors. The color-based water profiles in Bru'n Water were created based on a minimalist approach to water. Use only enough ionic content to produce the fermentation, clearing, and flavor performance needed in the finished beer.

[mabrungard]

By the way, any brewers contemplating the use of these strong acids such as hydrochloric or sulfuric, please be sure to purchase REAGENT Grade chemicals. In the US, the American Chemical Society (ACS) grades the Reagent grade as their most pure. This is still NOT a food-grade product that has been certified as free of hazardous impurities, but its as good as you are going to get. I wouldn't be surprised if CRS is made from reagent grade acids and not food-grade acids. I assume there is an equivalent Euro designation to ACS. Do seek it out.

[simple one]

...he tends to separately steep or add the more acidic grains late to the mash.

Does this not just get a good mash pH, but a dodgy beer pH?

[orlando]

The problem with Graham's approach is that it requires that the brewer have all those minerals on hand. I don't make that assumption. In addition, there are more than one combination of mineral additions to achieve a desired water profile. So it doesn't make any sense to me to impose a solution. I'm hoping that most brewers find that the layout of the mineral addition sheet is intuitive enough to guide them to the minerals and amounts they need for their water. I may be wrong on that front, but its how I've approached it. It would be quite easy to apply Excel's Solver function to automate the mineral additions, but it seems pointless as indicated above.

I have only ever used 3 salts + table salt when using the GW calculator so not particularly onerous. There may well be more than one way to achieve a given profile and for me it is this that makes coming to grips with water treatment so difficult. For the majority of us who are not chemists I'm afraid your "hope" that the spreadsheet is intuitive enough is not enough to get more of us using it. That would be a shame as it is clear to me you have a potentially brilliant tool that could become the answer to the frustration that the majority of us experience with adjusting water.

I don't think that Gordon argues for using mineral additions to achieve mash pH needs. He is a very non-technical brewer when it comes to water. He uses RO water nearly exclusively and in those brews that could use extra alkalinity, he tends to separately steep or add the more acidic grains late to the mash. With regard to adding minerals until the mash pH is suitable, I don't like that approach either. It tends to result in beers that are too minerally and the water tends to overshadow the malt and hop flavors. The color-based water profiles in Bru'n Water were created based on a minimalist approach to water. Use only enough ionic content to produce the fermentation, clearing, and flavor performance needed in the finished beer.

I would love to be a non-technical brewer of Gordon Strong's quality and if you can achieve his success without complicating things then I'm really interested (now that is hope). You are right about his approach to mash pH, it is achieved by using RO water and acidification to reduce alkalinity, only once this is done are mineral salts brought into play. One of the reasons that attracts me to your calculator is it offers a tool to do exactly this, if it also offered a suggested route to achieving the right mash pH from the recipe and via further salt additions I for one would be more than happy.

Don't get me wrong I hope you can see that I'm trying to be constructive here, trying to put the view of someone who I think represents a lot of home brewers, someone that wants to take his brewing to the next level but struggling with the technicalities involved. A tool like this seems to me to be designed to help people like me, which, with just a few more tweaks for the less gifted, could help us achieve our goals. Thank you for your input and patience.

[mabrungard]

...he tends to separately steep or add the more acidic grains late to the mash.

Does this not just get a good mash pH, but a dodgy beer pH?

It does. The thing that his method avoids is the tendency to make the wort too highly fermentable and thin the body. But, you could end up with the pH of the wort in the kettle being a little lower than desirable. This low pH can have the effect of 'reducing the hop expression' per Colin Kaminski who is a co-author of the upcoming book on Water. In my opinion, Gordon's work-around is not a great option. Getting the mash water alkalinity coordinated with the acidity of the mash grist is a better way to go.