Bru 'n Water and CRS

[Dave S]

I've been reading Martin's tutorial with screen shots and from what I read it looks like it can be used with CRS. But the drop-down list in the spreadsheet does not offer CRS as a choice, only discreet acids. Can anyone comment on this, as I don't particularly want to get into handling various acids when CRS is so readily available. On the other hand, Bru 'n Water looks interesting enough for me to want to try.

Any comment appreciated.

[Aleman]

The CRS Option is only available to 'paid supporters'

[Dave S]

The CRS Option is only available to 'paid supporters'

Right! worth a go then.

[Dave S]

O.K. so I've made a donation. How do I access the upgraded version? Or do I have to wait for a response from Martin?

[kane]

I was going to ask a similar question about how to input CRS, I didn't realise it was part of the paid program.

Instead what I've been doing is using grahams water treatment calculator for the CRS reduction, and then putting the resulting 'water' into Bru n water to see if there is then any further improvement that can be done.

The only problem I found was converting grahams carbonate amount into the bicarbonate and carbonate amount in Bru n water (they are not given in my water report, so I had to use bru n water to calcualte them initially, but I assume adding CRS changes the pH of the water? and so the calculation in Bru n water no longer applied),

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can calculate the bicarbonate and carbonate after adding an amount of CRS?

(Sorry to hijack the thread a bit)

Cheers.

[barneey]

O.K. so I've made a donation. How do I access the upgraded version? Or do I have to wait for a response from Martin?

If you have made a `donation` Martin sends out a supporters version of the program which will indeed have the CRS water treatment tab.

The bicarb reading is normally obtained by entering the know Alkalinity reading in "TAB 1" 14A the corresponding PH in 14B whcih then calculates the Bicarb figure in 14C. The bicarb figure is then entered into field C5, C6 is left blank.

Its interesting to see what effect CRS has on various elements of the water in my case adding additional chloride which I dont really want.

The major problem with any form of acid adjustment is sourcing the acids to treat it with in the first place. CRS is readily available and may well work with your water makeup, but other acids are not so, to the extent I`ve given up trying acid adjustment. So that then leaves dilution or another source of water altogether to brew with.

[kane]

The bicarb reading is normally obtained by entering the know Alkalinity reading in "TAB 1" 14A the corresponding PH in 14B whcih then calculates the Bicarb figure in 14C. The bicarb figure is then entered into field C5, C6 is left blank.

This is what I have done to get a bicarb figure with my original water, but what I meant was if I add CRS to reduce the alkalinity, will the pH also be reduced?

If it is then without pH strips, I wont know the new pH and so cant calculate a new value for the bicarb. If you see what I mean.

Whereas grahams calculator, shows me the new carbonate level, but I don't know if this can then be converted into a bicarb reading?

Cheers

[mabrungard]

This is what I have done to get a bicarb figure with my original water, but what I meant was if I add CRS to reduce the alkalinity, will the pH also be reduced?

If it is then without pH strips, I wont know the new pH and so cant calculate a new value for the bicarb. If you see what I mean.

Whereas grahams calculator, shows me the new carbonate level, but I don't know if this can then be converted into a bicarb reading?

Cheers

Yes, bicarbonate and carbonate are directly related. I'm not quite sure why Graham's calculator reports carbonate, since there is no carbonate in brewing water. Its almost all in the form of bicarbonate at typical tap water pH's of less than 9.

In my experience, not many water utilities report how much bicarbonate or carbonate is in their water. But they do frequently report the alkalinity. Bru'n Water does include a calculator that converts that alkalinity value to the bicarbonate and carbonate ion concentrations that produced that alkalinity value. Depending upon the tap water pH, the amount of the bicarb and carb ions will vary. If you want to know what only the concentration of carbonate ions is for a reported alkalinity, set the water pH value to 14 and the result will be all carbonate.

As the alkalinity of the mash water is reduced, the pH of the mash will be reduced. Bru'n Water includes an acidification calculator that will precisely tell you what the new alkalinity of the acidified water is. That would be an odd way to look at your water, but you can do it with Bru'n Water. If you know the alkalinity of the tap water and the strength of the acid, the acidification calculator is quite accurate. You would not need pH strips. In addition to that, paper pH strips are known to be inaccurate for measuring wort pH. You either have to use a calibrated meter or use the plastic ColorpHast strips.

I know that Bru'n Water is a new experience for those of you used to using Graham's calculator. But if you play with it a bit, you should find that it is quite easy to work with. Unfortunately, you probably won't be able to pick it up instantly. Water chemistry is not a simple topic and I could not distill the program into a totally intuitive format. There are too many things that a user can screw up and I've incorporated measures to help the user avoid those pitfalls. Therefore, it requires you to read the instructions for a few minutes and see how the inputs and outputs flow. The savvy user will be rewarded. The free version allows you to experiment quite a bit. That version does not include CRS, but I'm hoping to wean the UK brewers off of CRS anyhow. CRS is not always the acid a brewer should use for acidification in some styles. Lactic acid and phosphoric acid can be better options for some styles.

Sorry it isn't simple, stupid to use. But once you get used to it, it is quite simple. Check it out.

[kane]

Excellent, thanks Martin!

I would happily donate something for your efforts (as well as your information and help given on the forum), but at the minute funds are extremely limited (i.e. non existant). That's the reason I'm trying to work with what I have.

I found it quite easy to work with, but I think the main trouble I had was guessing at what the appropriate water is for a certain style. I know you have suggested profiles (as does graham) but for certain styles (e.g. a pale ale) there seems to be little agreement, so then it becomes a choice of who is right.

I think I have managed to get a reasonable profile using CRS and gypsum:

(ppm)
Calcium: 100
Magnesium: 24.6
Sodium: 14.9
Sulfate: 220
Chloride: 88.1
Bicarbonate: 30.6 (not sure if this one is correct for the reasons explained previously)

Alkalinity: 25 (as CaCO3)

Does this seem reasonable for a pale ale?

This is the original Water Profile:

Calcium: 60.8
Magnesium: 24.6
Sodium: 14.9
Sulfate: 24.6
Chloride: 31.8
Bicarbonate: 222.9

Alkalinity: 184 (as CaC03)

Cheers

[Aleman]

The main trouble I had was guessing at what the appropriate water is for a certain style. I know you have suggested profiles (as does graham) but for certain styles (e.g. a pale ale) there seems to be little agreement, so then it becomes a choice of who is right.

No one is 'Right'!!

The issue is that often the profiles suggested are historical, so you have no idea how accurate they are, often two wells drawn from different depths can have completely different profiles . . . and be different from tap water. The brewers of the region may not have brewed with the water 'as is', and have treated it. The Germans are masters of the art of water treatment, At the Coors brewery in Burton . . . all the water is deionised and then minerals are added back as required to hit a specific profile that is nothing like well or supply water. I have seen Czech Brewers add calcium (as calcium chloride) to their water to assist brewing.

This is one of the reasons I maintain that simple water treatment can be achieved, by measuring and adjusting alkalinity to what is suitable for the beer style (low 25s-30ppm for pale beer, and up to 125ppm for stouts). Then boost calcium (if required) to a minimum of 100ppm using an appropriate calcium bearer (gypsum and or calcium sulphate) to achieve a flavour profile that is desired, bearing in mind the mineral content of the water to start with.

I guess in many ways I am blessed with having low mineral content water to brew with, as most of the time I am not reducing alkalinity, and am always adding calcium, but like Martin I would never use CRS for all my alkalinity adjustment as I find it pushes the sulphate levels way to high. I have access to sulphuric and hydrochloric acids, as well as the more usual phosphoric and lactic (which I will never use again, as even at very low concentrations I can detect in the finished beer).

Food grade phosphoric is probably the best way to go, but it is important to realise that it will reduce calcium as calcium phosphate is highly insoluble . . . so any calculator you use calculator must (or should) take that into account.

[mabrungard]

+1 for Aleman's comments. The brewer's palate and those of his drinkers are what defines what is right.

But to answer Kane, I feel that one can have antagonistic flavor effects when high sulfate AND high chloride are present in brewing water. I notice that Graham quotes a reasonable representation of Burton water with high sulfate, but very moderate chloride. That agrees with the information I've received from Environmental Agency-Midlands for Burton groundwater. That low chloride level does not interfere with the very high sulfate and the beers can be quite tasty. Counter that with the other Pale Ale profiles Graham includes. I feel that it could be possible to develop less pleasant flavor because of the elevated chloride included there. I subscribe to keeping chloride low and allowing the sulfate to carry the flavor in those hoppy styles.

Everything I've experienced in brewing suggests that there are definite benefits to having a modest calcium content, even in Pilsners. I agree with Aleman that the word is that even Czech brewers are adding CaCl to their brewing waters with beneficial effect. To that end, I added a PseudoBohPils water profile to Bru'n Water that puts Ca at 40 ppm and elevates sulfate a bit and chloride a bit more to provide a better backbone to the water for a Boh Pils.

CRS and DLS are nice products in some situations, but they are NOT suitable for all brewing. Their use could be a good way to screw up a beer. The fundamentals of brewing might be normal, but the flavor can be way off base. A pre-packaged blend of salts may or may not produce the water you need for a particular beer. Get the individual salts and add only as needed.

I'm surprised that Aleman can taste lactate at low level, but some tasters are sensitive to it. Malting and Brewing Science quotes that the taste threshold in beer is 400 ppm lactate, but I can believe that some people can taste it at lower concentration. I routinely used to brew with water at 170 ppm bicarb (which means that I might have had up to 170 ppm lactate) and I don't think I could taste it. But, to each his own.

Phosphoric is a relatively neutral tasting acid in beer. Malt supplies about 1 percent phosphorus to wort and some of that does react with calcium in the water to form calcium phosphate. But I'm not sure that adding a hundred ppm or two of phosphoric acid will cause much more calcium precipitation (100 ppm = 0.01%). I don't think that there is much need to worry about phosphoric acid use in brewing. I think it is a good alternative for brewing.

[Dennis King]

I tend to read a lot about water treatments on the forums and still find a lot of the information confusing. I now stick to the results from a salifert kit, which is constantly the same as the water board results, and adjust with CRS and gypsum. When I started brewing in 1978 all books advised boiling for 1/2 hour and adding gypsum and Epsom salt as a standard treatment, I can hear Aleman thinking witchcraft, but for years it made great beers. Are they better now days with my vastly the increased information I have at my finger tips, I like to think so but I also think other factors such as better yeast may have helped. One day soon, as an experiment I'm going to brew using the old method, just to see.

[kane]

Thanks Aleman and Martin,

I have read many of the articles and forum posts on water treatment trying to gain a better understanding, so I should have chosen my words more carefully when I used the word 'right' regarding water profiles.
However I was trying to understand more where the maximum values for e.g. the chloride and sulfate came from. for example on Martins calculator he suggests sulfate no higher than 300ppm for a pale ale profile (350ppm max) and 55ppm (100 max, but reduced if high sulfate) for chloride. Comparing this to grahams profile of 330 and 165 respectively shows quite a difference for the chloride ranges.

I would definitely have a problem using CRS trying to obtain a lager profile for example, so I'm definitely going to investigate using phosphoric acid further, but for producing a pale ale profile, I think CRS doesn't seem to upset the balance too much (with my water)?

Cheers,
Kane

[barneey]

Thanks Aleman and Martin,

I have read many of the articles and forum posts on water treatment trying to gain a better understanding, so I should have chosen my words more carefully when I used the word 'right' regarding water profiles.
However I was trying to understand more where the maximum values for e.g. the chloride and sulfate came from. for example on Martins calculator he suggests sulfate no higher than 300ppm for a pale ale profile (350ppm max) and 55ppm (100 max, but reduced if high sulfate) for chloride. Comparing this to grahams profile of 330 and 165 respectively shows quite a difference for the chloride ranges.

I would definitely have a problem using CRS trying to obtain a lager profile for example, so I'm definitely going to investigate using phosphoric acid further, but for producing a pale ale profile, I think CRS doesn't seem to upset the balance too much (with my water)?

Cheers,
Kane

Kane how about you post your water profile with the proposed target profile ie Pale Ale, and see what other members come up with? I`ve got recent tests results myself so can do the same.