Using Murphy's Water Report

[charliemartin]

I have finally got round to getting my water tested by Murphys and now would like to proceed with water treatment using this info. I have plugged the values into Graeme Wheeler's Liquor Treatment Calculator, but notice there is no value for Sodium from Murphys. With a value of zero in the sodium box the initial ion balance check shows 0.43 for cations and 1 for anions. If I change the sodium box to 13 the value for cations changes to 1 which balances the anion value.
Am I correct to assume the sodium value should be 13 for my water or do I need to actually find out the true value? Does anyone know why Murphys don't quote a sodium figure?
One more thing I am unsure about is the volume of liquor to treat. Murphys recommend adding all the salts to the mash, but do I use the final volume of 23 litres, the mash liquor volume of 10-11 litres or the total liquor required for brewing when setting that value in the calculator?
Please be aware that my knowledge of liquor treatment is virtually zero, hence all the questions.

Thank you in advance.

Cheers,
Charliemartin

[crookedeyeboy]

All salts additions are based on the brew length, how much beer you are making.

All acid additions to the liquor are based on the volume of liquor being used.

These are two separate dosage rates. In your report it will specifically say whether you are treating the volume used or the brew length.
Give me a shout if you're stuck.

[charliemartin]

Thanks crookedeyeboy,
That answers one question. Kinda what I thought, but wanted to be sure before going ahead. I have purchased some DWB which I intend to use in line with Murphy's recommendations initially, but would like to be able to use the Liquor Treatment calculator at a later date. The lack of a sodium value makes this difficult. Does 13 ppm seem like a credible value for my water? Unfortunately Scottish Water do not appear to quote mineral values for water supplies any more.

Cheers,
Charliemartin

[Eric]

Thanks crookedeyeboy,
That answers one question. Kinda what I thought, but wanted to be sure before going ahead. I have purchased some DWB which I intend to use in line with Murphy's recommendations initially, but would like to be able to use the Liquor Treatment calculator at a later date. The lack of a sodium value makes this difficult. Does 13 ppm seem like a credible value for my water? Unfortunately Scottish Water do not appear to quote mineral values for water supplies any more.

Cheers,
Charliemartin

Yes, use 13ppm. The precise value it won't be sufficiently different to cause problems in beer made using that calculator.
That profile looks very little different to UK rainwater, dilute sea water with some dissolved carbon dioxide.

[Rubbery]

All salts additions are based on the brew length, how much beer you are making.

All acid additions to the liquor are based on the volume of liquor being used.

These are two separate dosage rates. In your report it will specifically say whether you are treating the volume used or the brew length.
Give me a shout if you're stuck.

Yes, that is how you treat the water following the suggested additions on Murphy's water report.

But... if you want to use Graham's Water Treatment Calculator, then you treat all the water. So, the volume is the total volume of water used for both acid and salt additions.

[charliemartin]

Thanks Eric,
Our water is pretty soft, sourced from a local river I believe.

Cheers,
Charliemartin

[charliemartin]

Thanks Rubbery,
So if using the calculator should I do separate calculations for the mash and sparge or boil, or should I do one calculation for the total liquor and add to the mash? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get this straight in my head before I proceed.

Cheers,
Charliemartin

[Eric]

Thanks Rubbery,
So if using the calculator should I do separate calculations for the mash and sparge or boil, or should I do one calculation for the total liquor and add to the mash? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get this straight in my head before I proceed.

Cheers,
Charliemartin

You should enter the total volume of water used. In note 9 it advises all liquor to be treated with the of anything used to increase alkalinity which is to be added to the mash.

Adding all calcium and magnesium salts into a mash with little alkalinity risks lowering pH too much.

[Rubbery]

I treat all the water before I start, using Graham's Water Treatment Calculator, using one calculation on the total volume of water used.

I usually treat the water the night before brewday. Adding half a campden tablet, the salts and CRS. In the morning I give it a quick stir to lift any remaining salts off the bottom of the HLT. By the time I hit 80C all the salts are dissolved.

[mabrungard]

I was at the American Homebrewers Conference this week and was talking with the Lamotte representative. Lamotte is probably the #2 supplier of laboratory and testing supplies in the water and wastewater industries behind Hach. They are working with John Palmer in creating test kits focused on the brewing industry. John actually walked up as I was talking with the Lamotte rep that created the kit.

Their new kit provides analysis capability for Ca, Cl, SO4, and Alk. They deduce Mg levels by the difference between the Calcium hardness and Total Hardness values. They then assume that the water is comprised of mostly those ions (Ca, Mg, SO4, Cl, and HCO3) and then use the difference in the cation/anion total to deduce the sodium content. Just as was done above. It should be close enough for brewing use.

[Eric]

I was at the American Homebrewers Conference this week and was talking with the Lamotte representative. Lamotte is probably the #2 supplier of laboratory and testing supplies in the water and wastewater industries behind Hach. They are working with John Palmer in creating test kits focused on the brewing industry. John actually walked up as I was talking with the Lamotte rep that created the kit.

Their new kit provides analysis capability for Ca, Cl, SO4, and Alk. They deduce Mg levels by the difference between the Calcium hardness and Total Hardness values. They then assume that the water is comprised of mostly those ions (Ca, Mg, SO4, Cl, and HCO3) and then use the difference in the cation/anion total to deduce the sodium content. Just as was done above. It should be close enough for brewing use.

As seen here.

[charliemartin]

Thank you very much to everyone who took the time to reply to this post. It's obvious that water is far more complicated than I ever imagined. A lot of learning still to do, but yet another facet to homebrewing which makes it very absorbing and interesting. Every day is a school day.

Cheers,
Charliemartin

[Mcbrewer]

Hi charliemartin...I was hoping you could give me a update on your use of the calculator as i live in Aberdeen and my water report came back almost identical to yours.Have you had the chance to make a beer using it and how did it turn out.

For the bitter profile it is telling me to use 21 grams of gypsum,surely that's to much isn't it.

I look forward to hearing any results you have had.

Thanks

Mark

[charliemartin]

Hi charliemartin...I was hoping you could give me a update on your use of the calculator as i live in Aberdeen and my water report came back almost identical to yours.Have you had the chance to make a beer using it and how did it turn out.

For the bitter profile it is telling me to use 21 grams of gypsum,surely that's to much isn't it.

I look forward to hearing any results you have had.

Thanks

Mark

Hi Mark,
Sorry, but I haven't really used it since I got the Murphy's water report. I have just been using their recommendations, mainly DWB in pale ales & bitters. I read your thread re. getting hops to pop so I assume that's what you are looking for information for. I would say there are more knowledgeable guys on here than me when it comes to water treatment etc.
One thing I would suggest is to drop the Magnum bittering addition and substitute something like Columbus or Chinook.
For what it's worth I have also pasted my water treatment (for 41L as per your post) for the Burton Pale Ale profile below which has a high Sulphate to Chloride ratio. It might be worth a try to get that hop pop your looking for.





Cheers,
Charliemartin

[Mcbrewer]

Thanks for taking the time to reply Charlie.Using the dwb recommendations from murphys I have been making some great ales but I am hoping this is going to be the final piece of the jigsaw .

There's only one thing for it and that is to just go for it and get a brew on and hope I get something drinkable at the end of it.

I know what your saying about water treatment,once you start getting into it it gets complicated and makes my head hurt a little bit .