Water targets for beer types

[rob-63]

Up until now I haven’t done much water treatment, apart from treating with potassium metabisulphate for chloramine/chlorine, but now want to get the liquor more suitable for various types of brew.

I have read quite a few threads here (and the water treatment pages) and elsewhere, but don’t want to get things too complicated… as it seems quite easy to get lost in all the detail!

Basically, I just want to do the three steps of:

1. Treat for chloramine/chlorine.
2. Reduce the alkalintity (if needed).
3. Adjust the calcium level.
Hopefully nothing else is needed!

And for the above to have a basic target to aim for for different types of beer: eg, pale ale, IPA, sout/porter, and maybe lager too.

I do have a simple spreadsheet that tells me what amount of acid (CRS only at present) to use to reduce alkalinity to the target, and then what level of calcium, chloride and sulphate this will give me, to then to be able to treat with gypsum (or other salts) to adjust the calcium level. I realise this may be a bit simplistic, but for now I don’t want to get too complicated.

I have a local water report (Thames Valley – North Oxfordshire 2012) that gives me the folowing info:

Chloride Cl – 43.1 mg/L
Sulphate SO4 – 89.2 mg/L
Sodium Na – 33.5 mg/L
Magnesium – not tested
Total hardness CaCO3 – 255.4 mg/L

I have carried out a salifert test which gives my total alkalinity as 168 mg/L.

So, after all that, my first question is what is my calcium level?

The water company said it can be worked out by multiplying the total hardness by 0.4 (so 255.4x.4 = 102.6). But I, have also read somewhere that it is the total alkalinty value that needs to be multiplied by 0.4 (=67.2). ?

The next, and bit more detailed question is what targets should I be aiming at for the different beer types, and also the ratio of chloride to sulphate as I’ve read this can be as important.

I have a chart that I am trying to fill in to keep this info handy. Filling in any of the blanks,correcting values, or any other relevant info would be appreciated.



Thanks,
Rob

[Eric]

Up until now I haven’t done much water treatment, apart from treating with potassium metabisulphate for chloramine/chlorine, but now want to get the liquor more suitable for various types of brew.

I have read quite a few threads here (and the water treatment pages) and elsewhere, but don’t want to get things too complicated… as it seems quite easy to get lost in all the detail!

Basically, I just want to do the three steps of:

1. Treat for chloramine/chlorine.
2. Reduce the alkalintity (if needed).
3. Adjust the calcium level.
Hopefully nothing else is needed!

And for the above to have a basic target to aim for for different types of beer: eg, pale ale, IPA, sout/porter, and maybe lager too.

I do have a simple spreadsheet that tells me what amount of acid (CRS only at present) to use to reduce alkalinity to the target, and then what level of calcium, chloride and sulphate this will give me, to then to be able to treat with gypsum (or other salts) to adjust the calcium level. I realise this may be a bit simplistic, but for now I don’t want to get too complicated.

I have a local water report (Thames Valley – North Oxfordshire 2012) that gives me the folowing info:

Chloride Cl – 43.1 mg/L
Sulphate SO4 – 89.2 mg/L
Sodium Na – 33.5 mg/L
Magnesium – not tested
Total hardness CaCO3 – 255.4 mg/L

I have carried out a salifert test which gives my total alkalinity as 168 mg/L.

So, after all that, my first question is what is my calcium level?

Relying upon any water company's historical data is done at great risk, but surprisingly, your own figure for alkalinity fits with their report. There is no substitute for a proper analysis, but let's have a go with what you have.
Total hardness (as given above) is a measure of all calcium and magnesium present in whatever form, expressed as the amount of calcium carbonate that would produce the exact same amount of hardness. This means that if there was no magnesium in that water, it would contain 102mg/l calcium. Alternatively, in theory, there could be no calcium and a little more than 62mg/l to give the same hardness.
I don't know how much magnesium there will likely be in your water, there will be some who will, but it would be reasonable to assume it will be small in comparison to calcium such that you might initially wish to assume your water has 95mg/l calcium and 5mg/l magnesium.

The water company said it can be worked out by multiplying the total hardness by 0.4 (so 255.4x.4 = 102.6). But I, have also read somewhere that it is the total alkalinty value that needs to be multiplied by 0.4 (=67.2). ?

The atomic weight of calcium is 40, the molecular weight of calcium carbonate is 100 and as you can see the ratio is 40/100 = 0.4. Total hardness is the sum of alkalinity and permanent hardness, so to find all calcium use total hardness.

The next, and bit more detailed question is what targets should I be aiming at for the different beer types, and also the ratio of chloride to sulphate as I’ve read this can be as important.

I have a chart that I am trying to fill in to keep this info handy. Filling in any of the blanks,correcting values, or any other relevant info would be appreciated.



Thanks,
Rob

Profiles can be subject to an individual's taste, even historical profiles of long standing are a matter of great debate. What is for sure, your water will not easily make the more delicate styles unless diluted with RO water or the like, or boiled to sediment as much calcium as can be. Your beers will likely have some intenser flavours that might not necessarily be overly appreciated by those who prefer cold pale beers.
Initially, for hoppier beers increase only the sulphate and for maltier ones like stout, only the chloride and don't worry about sodium and magnesium.
When using acid to reduce alkalinity, always test a sample of the treated liquor.
Good luck.

[rob-63]

Thanks Eric, very useful information.

So, if I have followed you correctly in regard to the hardness/alkalinity, then from the water report (they tell me they will have the 2013 report available online in July!) and my alkalinity test:

Total hardness = 255 mg/l (from report)
Calcium = total hardness x 0.4 = 102 mg/l

Alkalinity = 168 mg/l (from test)

Total hardness = alkalinity + permanent hardness (calcium + magnesium?)
……....……………= 168 + (102 +5?) = 275 mg/l

So where you said my test and the water report were close, it was the water report 255 figure in relation to this 275 derived from the alkalinity test?
Or have I got that totally wrong!


On the issue of adding RO water for certain types, then how do I know how much to add and the effects this has on all the chemical levels discussed?

Anyway, I'm going to brew a porter next. So going with my ‘standard’ water I wil reduce the alkalinity from 168 to 130 (only have CRS acid at present).
From my calculations this will give me a profile of:
Alkalinity = 130
Calcium = 95 (assumed)
Chloride = 55
Sulphate = 108

How do those levels look for a porter. You suggested increasing the chloride, so I need to add calcium chloride to get to a 2 or 3 to 1 chloride to sulphate ratio (as I’ve read is desirable for porter) ?

[Eric]

Thanks Eric, very useful information.

So, if I have followed you correctly in regard to the hardness/alkalinity, then from the water report (they tell me they will have the 2013 report available online in July!) and my alkalinity test:

Total hardness = 255 mg/l (from report)
Calcium = total hardness x 0.4 = 102 mg/l

Only true if there was no magnesium present. The maximum amount of calcium possible in that water with total hardness of 255mg/l CaCO3 is 102mg/l. However, it is certain that magnesium will also be present in that water (and all natural waters in the UK) so it would be more reasonable to assume that the total amount of calcium present is of the order of 90 to 95mg/l and magnesium 5 to 7mg/l.

Alkalinity = 168 mg/l (from test)

Total hardness = alkalinity + permanent hardness (calcium + magnesium?)

The above is for all practical purposes correct, but below needs modifying.

……....……………= 168 + (102 +5?) = 275 mg/l

So where you said my test and the water report were close, it was the water report 255 figure in relation to this 275 derived from the alkalinity test?
Or have I got that totally wrong!

The water company figure of 255mg/l CaCO3 is for total hardness, which includes alkalinity, so there can be no more than 102mg/l calcium. The difference between total hardness and alkalinity is permanent hardness.
With all the relevant data it is possible to cross check it by seeing if all the ions in solution balance, for if they don't that water cannot exist. For example, sulphate (an anion) cannot exist in water on its own, it will be there in combination with other ions which most likely will be either or both of the cations calcium and magnesium. Calcium sulphate is gypsum and magnesium sulphate, Epsom salts, both found in natural water, used as brewing salts AND are a source of permanent hardness.
Now conversely, if the water does exist then cations and anions must balance such that if one ion is unknown it is possible to calculate its value. Now in this case not all data is available, but if we assume that what we don't know is insignificant we might balance what is known.
Sodium is mostly found associated with chloride, 33.5mg of sodium will balance with 52mg of chloride, so it would appear that all that chloride and a bit more will be paired with sodium. Sodium is not included in hardness calculations.
Turning our attention to sulphate, 89.2mg would provide 93mg/l CaCO3 of hardness if it were all associated with either calcium or magnesium. Add this to the 168 you found for alkalinity and it gives total hardness of 261mg/l, not far away from the water company figure.

On the issue of adding RO water for certain types, then how do I know how much to add and the effects this has on all the chemical levels discussed?

Anyway, I'm going to brew a porter next. So going with my ‘standard’ water I wil reduce the alkalinity from 168 to 130 (only have CRS acid at present).
From my calculations this will give me a profile of:
Alkalinity = 130
Calcium = 95 (assumed)
Chloride = 55
Sulphate = 108

How do those levels look for a porter. You suggested increasing the chloride, so I need to add calcium chloride to get to a 2 or 3 to 1 chloride to sulphate ratio (as I’ve read is desirable for porter) ?

I'll come back later on the profile, I'm off for a pint.

[Eric]

On the issue of adding RO water for certain types, then how do I know how much to add and the effects this has on all the chemical levels discussed?

Anyway, I'm going to brew a porter next. So going with my ‘standard’ water I wil reduce the alkalinity from 168 to 130 (only have CRS acid at present).
From my calculations this will give me a profile of:
Alkalinity = 130
Calcium = 95 (assumed)
Chloride = 55
Sulphate = 108

How do those levels look for a porter. You suggested increasing the chloride, so I need to add calcium chloride to get to a 2 or 3 to 1 chloride to sulphate ratio (as I’ve read is desirable for porter) ?

I'll come back later on the profile, I'm off for a pint.

If you were to assume RO water contains no minerals, then it becomes a pro rata calculation when the new mineral content will be the original water profile content multiplied by (1-n) where n is the proportion of RO water. So if a quarter of the final volume was RO water then the resultant mineral content would be three quarters of that in the tap water, if it was half then the result would be half and if three quarters was RO then the liquor would have only one quarter the mineral levels of the original water.

While mashing a porter with alkalinity of 130mg/l CaCO3 may be fine, that same alkalinity in liquor towards the end of the sparge when sugar extraction would be all but complete might result in too much undesirable material being washed into the beer. You should therefore consider using extra acid in your sparge water which if it is CRS will further increase both chloride and sulphate content.
Calcium chloride flake is by weight 27% calcium and 48% chloride. If you added 400mg flake per litre you would be adding 192mg/l chloride and 108mg/ calcium which would raise the calcium content to near an upper limit while providing something like 2:1 ratio of chloride to sulphate.

All this is purely hypothetical until you get a decent water analysis.

[rob-63]

Thanks very much for the posts Eric, thay have been very informative and helped a lot. I've spent the last couple of hours reading about anion - cation water balance and ion milliequivalents! It is getting clearer now... slowly.

At least the RO calculation is simple.

Also thanks for the input on the treatment for water for the porter.

So, now to order some calcium chloride flakes... and to get a decent water analysis carried out. Any recommendations of where to get one done?

Hope you enjoyed your beer!!

Cheers,
Rob

[paulg]

water analysis murphy & son under lab services
http://www.murphyhomebrew.com/

[Eric]

Glad if you have found this helpful, enjoy your reading, I frequently find that an answer leads to two or more questions.

Some have found some aquatic shop RO water to have a not insignifiant mineral content, so caution is necessary with that route.

You could use common salt to increase chloride, of which it is 61%, but it will increase sodium (39%, table salt being anhydrous) that although not necessarily good to do, with your water not having an excess might add 40 to the chloride with tolerable 25 increase in sodium. Another option to help could be to use hydrochloric acid instead of CRS for reducing alkalinity as it would add only chloride. Similarly, using sulphuric acid would increase only sulphates if producing a more hoppy beer. On the continent they've used lactic acid to get around their purity laws but really to acidify a mash with low mineral content liquor rather than to reduce alkalinity. Use it for that purpose with your water and may quickly regret doing so. Phosphoric acid has recently become popular amongst many in the UK. It will add neither chloride or sulphate but instead phosphate. I don't know of any source of advising adding of phosphate salts to beer, while virtually all advise sulphates and chlorides and the last place I used them is where my tomatoes are today growing. I've used it to produce drinkable beer, but feel certain it can be tasted just as it does as a key ingredient in Coke, but there are many who say otherwise.

As posted, Murphy's at present would seem to have the market for testing. Brewers have long hoped that a competitive alternative would enter the market as Murphy's are known on occasions to get things wrong. We also appear to be on the eve of a brewing specific testing kit coming to the market, but how accurate that might be is yet to be known.

Thanks, yes, the beers were nice. Started with South Island Pale by Saltaire, strange hops and a bit light for me but a nice enough start on a warm evening. Then it was Polly Donkin Oatmeal Stout from Cullercoats with 3p a pint donation to the RNLI. Normally I would try another but donated more to the RNLI while trying to work out what proportions of the seven malts they claim. To me it seemed that pale accounted for 80%, the oats I wasn't sure for while they were unmistakably there, they weren't too obvious. Chocolate dominated followed, by roast barley but I couldn't separate what I presume to have been amber, brown and black. Such a hard life.

[rob-63]

Murphy’s water analysis has been paid for, and sample is in the post! Thanks Paul & Eric.

I notice that they don’t test the sodium content – is this not really an issue, or can it be worked out from other values? My (out of date) local water report gives an average of 33.5 mg/l, so could use this value if necessary.

Hydrochloric acid seems like it could be the way to go for the porter so as to getter a better chloride to sulphate ratio. I’ve looked on a few homebrew supply websites and they don’t seem to stock it.

In my set up I pre heat the total water for the brew (plus a bit extra) in the HLT, so will add any acids in there before heating. Is it ok to add any salts used into the HLT too (for the total water volume), as I read of them being added to the dry grains and then a further dose again in the boil.

Not tried either of the beers you had last night… but seemed like a tough evening! The oatmeal stout sounds like a nice pint!

So, now to wait for Murphy’s to do their thing.

Cheers,
Rob

[Eric]

This is a major concern with Murphy's testing. They have the latest tech machine specifically for purpose, yet it doesn't measure sodium content? Sodium isn't important to brewing except that you want to know there's no too much in your brew. That's not likely to happen often in the UK, but that can't be said in some places and in your particular case I'd feel content with the water company's figure that it won't prove an issue when brewing. The main benefit of a figure for sodium is the ability to cross check the others by a trial balance, so Murphy's figures cannot be readily checked as you might hope. If their analysis is good, you can derive a satisfactory estimate.

Yes, hydrochloric acid is hard to source, not many highly reputable companies will sell it to individuals. It's also the most abominable stuff to handle when undiluted in a confined space. Mind, once you've got it you will find it much cheaper to use than CRS.

When to add salts? I don't know. No simple and consistent answer for that and can depend on what your water needs to have added. Lots of calcium in the mash will drop its pH, which can work for you or against you. Gypsum doesn't like dissolving in some waters including mine, so I avoid adding that to the mash when I can. It's all part of the fun of trying this and that.

Cheers Rob,
Eric.

[rob-63]

Any advice on where to source the elusive hydrochloric acid?

[Eric]

Any advice on where to source the elusive hydrochloric acid?

This was recently suggested by someone far more knowledgeable and qualified than me. Only about one third the volume of CRS is needed to neutralise the same alkalinity.

[rob-63]

Thanks Eric - I'll probably get myself a bottle of that then.

[rob-63]

The water analysis report is back from Murphy’s, as follows:

Alkalinity (as CaCO3) – 168 (which is re-assuring as it is exactly as I measured with the salifert test)
Chloride – 32.34 mg/L
Sulphate – 58.74 mg/L
Magnesium – 4 mg/L
Calcium – 81 mg/L
Nitrate – 14.8 mg/L
Sodium – not given
Potassium – not given
pH 7.07

Sodium is not recorded, so, as I understand it, the sodium level can be ascertained by balancing the anions and cations, and for this the bicarbonate is needed, which I think is equal to the total alkalinity x 1.22 (168 x 1.22 = 205)?

So feeding all those into my spreadsheet calculator I get a level for anions of 5.73 meq/L, and if I use 32 mg/L for sodium (no level for potassium so entered as 0) I have 5.76 meq/L for cations.

The 32 mg/L for sodium ties in quite well with the original water report average of 33.5.

Right, to get this to a good state for a porter, Murphy’s recommendation is to not add any acid and to leave the alkalinity as 168, but add calcium chloride flakes, calcium sulphate, and salt to adjust other levels.

I am going to do a brew length of 50 litres and for this will start with 75 litres in the HLT for all water needs. So using Murphy’s as a guide, I work out that adding the following to the HLT,

3g of gypsum will add 9.3 mg/L calcium and 22.3 mg/L sodium;
8g of calcium chloride will add 29 mg/L calcium and 51.5 mg/L of chloride;
16g of salt will add 83.8 mg/L sodium and 129.3 mg/L chloride.

Giving a final profile of:
Alkalinity (as CaCO3) – 168 mg/L
Chloride – 213 mg/L
Sulphate – 81 mg/L (a good chloride to sulphate ratio of 2.6 to 1)
Magnesium – 4 mg/L
Calcium – 119 mg/L
Sodium – 116 mg/L

Have I got that right, and does the profile look ok, and adding all to the water prior to mash is acceptable?

I could use hydrochloric acid (I now have some of the 33% from the ebay link given) to reduce the alkalinity, but am unsure how much this reduces per ml (I could do a test), but how much chloride does it add?

Thanks for any advice.
Rob

[Eric]

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Giving a final profile of:
Alkalinity (as CaCO3) – 168 mg/L
Chloride – 213 mg/L
Sulphate – 81 mg/L (a good chloride to sulphate ratio of 2.6 to 1)
Magnesium – 4 mg/L
Calcium – 119 mg/L
Sodium – 116 mg/L

Have I got that right, and does the profile look ok, and adding all to the water prior to mash is acceptable?

I could use hydrochloric acid (I now have some of the 33% from the ebay link given) to reduce the alkalinity, but am unsure how much this reduces per ml (I could do a test), but how much chloride does it add?

Thanks for any advice.
Rob

Yes, you've got it, just a typo, but your summary is correct.
33% hydrochloric acid will have a molarity of about 10.5 meaning 1ml will neutralise about 525mg of CaCO3 (alkalinity) and supply 373mg of chloride. A problem here is the acid may not be exactly the strength on the bottle and if you leave the top off for long it certainly won't. Best practice may be to measure alkalinity before and after when you can assume for every 10ppm reduction in alkalinity (CaCO3), chloride will increase by 7.1ppm.
I think Murphy advise all salts are added to the grain so that the high calcium level will lower mash pH to permit higher levels of alkalinity. If the salts are universally distributed through the mash and sparge liquor this effect will be lost.
For me you've reached the stage of opinion and preference. Why not suck it and see?