Carbonate and Bicarbonate?

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
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inthedark
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Carbonate and Bicarbonate?

Post by inthedark » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:24 pm

A number of the sources I've read quote bicarbonate levels when describing target water for particular styles.

My calculator of choice for water treatment (because I don't understand Brew N Water) is the one hosted here at Jim's, but the target water section calls for carbonate instead. Is there some sort of conversion I can do from bicarbonate to carbonate or are the two unrelated for this purpose?

Thanks

Paul

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Eric
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Re: Carbonate and Bicarbonate?

Post by Eric » Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:19 pm

Yes, there's a simple mathematical relationship. Getting alkalinity to a correct level is the vital starting point for water treatment.
Alkalinity is composed of various compounds, but for comparison and adjustment it is helpful to have it expressed in a single form.
When measured as calcium carbonate(CaCO3), then to convert that to bicarbonate(HCO3) multiply by 1.22 or by 0.6 for conversion to carbonate(CO3)
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Re: Carbonate and Bicarbonate?

Post by inthedark » Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:31 pm

Eric wrote:Yes, there's a simple mathematical relationship. Getting alkalinity to a correct level is the vital starting point for water treatment.
Alkalinity is composed of various compounds, but for comparison and adjustment it is helpful to have it expressed in a single form.
When measured as calcium carbonate(CaCO3), then to convert that to bicarbonate(HCO3) multiply by 1.22 or by 0.6 for conversion to carbonate(CO3)
OK, so does that mean converting from a target bicarbonate to target carbonate is roughly 50% (0.6/1.22 = 0.492)?

Paul

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Re: Carbonate and Bicarbonate?

Post by AnthonyUK » Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:17 pm

My bicarbonate levels in Bru'N Water are 300+ ppm but carbonate is 0.3ppm which in the comments says is OK as the pH is below 9.
If you can persevere with BruNwater it is much more useful once it clicks.

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Re: Carbonate and Bicarbonate?

Post by Eric » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:26 pm

inthedark wrote:
Eric wrote:Yes, there's a simple mathematical relationship. Getting alkalinity to a correct level is the vital starting point for water treatment.
Alkalinity is composed of various compounds, but for comparison and adjustment it is helpful to have it expressed in a single form.
When measured as calcium carbonate(CaCO3), then to convert that to bicarbonate(HCO3) multiply by 1.22 or by 0.6 for conversion to carbonate(CO3)
OK, so does that mean converting from a target bicarbonate to target carbonate is roughly 50% (0.6/1.22 = 0.492)?

Paul
Yes Paul, you have that mathematically correct.
The subject isn't rocket science, but a confusing one in which it is easy to make incorrect assumptions.
Are you asking this in relation to alkalinity or hardness?
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Re: Carbonate and Bicarbonate?

Post by inthedark » Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:33 pm

Eric wrote: Are you asking this in relation to alkalinity or hardness?
It's because some 'target' water profiles show bicarbonate and others show carbonate, and I want to use the calculator (which only accepts carbonate) to treat my water to get it closer to the stated target. Is that what you're asking?

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Re: Carbonate and Bicarbonate?

Post by Eric » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:08 pm

inthedark wrote:
Eric wrote: Are you asking this in relation to alkalinity or hardness?
It's because some 'target' water profiles show bicarbonate and others show carbonate, and I want to use the calculator (which only accepts carbonate) to treat my water to get it closer to the stated target. Is that what you're asking?

I'd read your posting to imply an intent to use Graham's Water Treatment Calculator, which has options to use any of those three measurements mentioned for both or either alkalinity and hardness without need for conversion. As hardness and alkalinity are frequently confused due to being quantified by the same or similar measurement, I thought the question might have some validity.

Good luck.
Eric.
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Re: Carbonate and Bicarbonate?

Post by inthedark » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:12 pm

Yes, the calculator uses any of the measures for a starting point but not for where you want to get to. It's that bit I was having trouble with. Thanks for your help!

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